Lighter/thinner or heavier/thicker?

[EngineerDude]

Dada,

I expected it to be difficult, but I must admit that yes, it was at times far more difficult than I thought it would be.

In retrospect these two trees were probably not optimum removals for a novice, but my real point with this comment is that the process of insuring I was confident that my actions were safe to both people and property led to an unanticipated inefficiency. As it relates particularly to the potential for property damage, had these trees been in the open, I could have been more aggressive in my approach. Bottom line on this, these were probably not the place to learn the paths that long limbs follow as they drop, etc.

Also, as many suggested to me before I began, running a saw in a tree is different from running it on the ground. Firing it up aloft for the first time was definitely an adrenaline moment! And, my saw was too big (Jonsered 2159) and the rear handle was awkward. If I had it do over again, or if I had more of these to do, I'd probably go with a Stihl 200T. The difficulty and overall challenge of running this too big saw in the tree was made worse by doing it without climbers. I'd buy some of these too if I could roll back time or if I had more to do.

Summarizing, proper planning and lots of preparation yielded successful results, but lack of experience and $$ constraints that affected equipment decisions made for a slow and difficult experience. But if I had it to do over again, I'd do it over again, just with the noted equipment changes.

By the way, having gone through this, if ProblemTree is reading this, with reference to his post "Hello !!!" in the Commercial Tree Care and Climbing forum, if you're not a troll, as some are suggesting, then my advice to you is to follow their advice and hire a pro. I know this sounds hypocritical, as they told me the same thing and I went ahead anyway, but as challenging as my removals were, they pale in comparison to yours. I spent conservatively a hundred hours researching, gathering data, and planning, and still I wouldn't tackle that tree as my first (or second, or third, or ...)

Last item, just for grins I'm tacking on a couple of photos from dropping the maple. Not fishing for comments, but just adding these because I know I like looking at pics and guess others must too. 133 is the best shot I have of early in the process, 213 and 218 are obviously later.

 

[OTG BOSTON]

ED claimed to be leaving the parallel TB/AS discussions. I see that he hasn't yet.

IN case you are still here, you're walking on a thin limb claiming that your engineering education qualifies you to do takedowns. Five years ago, almost to the day, another engineer with a Doctorate in his resume, was killed doing a takedown that he wasn't prepared to do. His lack of tree knowledge lead him to doing something that he wasn't prepared to do. To give you an idea of this man's place in the arbo profession, I'll illustrate his connection to us. The accident happened in mid-afternoon. When I got home from our chapter TCC I had three seperate email announcments that had started about three hours previous. All three of them had circled the globe in forwards to friends in the industry. No matter, he is dead still.

There is no doubt in my mind that you understand the science of tree takedowns. How do you plan on learning the art? After looking at your pictures I'd be pretty concerned about climbing the tree. I've been working in the profession for close to forty years and climbing for thirty. What does that mean to you?

If you choose to go on with this project you might consider taking the feasibility acid test. Print out all of the threads from TB and AS. Without any pump-priming have your wife, I'm making an assumption based on your "honey-do" comment, read them. Then, ask her if she still wants you to go ahead. If I make a wrong assupmtion about a spouse, ask your next of kin or a close friend. If they think that you're qualified, go ahead, climb on!

Have you bought the video series "The Art and Science of Practical Rigging" ? The man who was killed wrote the script for the book and videos. The ASPR'N series is considered by many in the profession the best instructions available. Pete Donzelli still lacked the understanding of the variablility of trees, especially decayed ones, that migh have kept him alive.

How about making up a map to show us how the yard is laid out. Show tree and house locations and tree heights.It sure looks like the aspen would be a flopper directly towards the camera in one of the long/wide pics that you posted.

What kind of engineering do you practice? Can you share some insights into what type of projects that you've worked on?

PS...is this an attempt by the mods at humor? RTC? I agree, it seems like the thread is on the way to the accident/death forum. Pretty macabre....

This exact story was going through my head the whole time I've been reading this thread. I saw the guy do a talk on dynamic loading. Throughout the lecture he repeatedly said, "I'm not a treeclimber, I'm an engineer." A few months later he was gone.

I'm glad you made it through successfully ED

 

[CJ-7]

Been a while since I posted, but Like ED, I too am an engineer and a rec climber. While engineers are certainly not the only ones in this category, they are generally trained to set realistic goals, analyze the situation and risks, look at the alternatives, and plan a solution that will meet the goals and solve the problem within an acceptable level of risk. I'll bet there are a lot of rec climbers who carry a saw into the trees but don't admit to it as they will get flamed on this site. As I have said before, I believe someone like ED who has read of the horror stories on this forum and probably read a thousand posts, is in a much better position to climb a tree and cut wood safely than many wannabees who get 10 minutes of instruction by a hack. To me the key is knowing and accepting the risks, period.

 

[Doctor Dave]

Dada and Dan, you underestimate me. You both are absolutely correct that I lack experience climbing. But what I lack in experience I'll more than make up for with preparation, based on EXTENSIVE research into the entire process (I have well over 100 hours invested in this to date (including the reference I mentioned and others, the websites of all the major manufacturers and vendors, and significant time observing and interacting with local crews, most of which frankly do an abysmal job of respecting safety considerations). Beyond this, my engineering background allows me to understand the phyics of this better than the average arborist/climber, and the engineering mentality also drives me to consider the process comprehensively, minimzing the risk.

Bottom line is that I won't be going into this or any other tree until I'm qualified to do so, but I WILL be going into this tree and many more in the future.

I obviously can't stop you from your curious, annoying, elitist desire to look down your nose at me because I lack experience, but I will ask that you please don't post any more replies that might encourage others to also close their minds and so not reply with helpful information.

"elitist"??!!

Maybe you should look in a mirror. Why do you think anyone is going to give you a straight answer if the first thing you do is insult them? You want to learn how to climb and trim trees? Join a tree crew, and express a desire to be a climber trainee (you'll probably have to feed the chipper for a few weeks first).

Am I impressed with your impression of yourself:

"Beyond this, my engineering background allows me to understand the phyics of this better than the average arborist/climber, and the engineering mentality also drives me to consider the process comprehensively, minimzing the risk."

No.


It is very easy to screw up in a tree, even with all the knowledge and training of an expert. Here is a little quiz---maybe some others can add to it.



How are you going to get down if your jumars are jammed and you didn't bring a prusik loop to take tension off of the rope?

How are you going to move across the crown to another subtrunk?

Rapel with a figure 8 or friction knot?

Should you bring a steel core flipline and a lanyard or just the latter,and why?

How do you get out of a tree you're top-roped in if your rope is too short?

How much of the top of a conifer should you drop with the first cut?

Where should you be?

Should the trunk be on your right or on your left when you cut a branch you are going to hinge/tear?

Why do you tie-in to two points before you make a cut, aside from a back up in case you cut the rope? (of course, with your research, you ain't gonna do that).

Why bring a pole saw in the tree with you?

BTW, I spent far too many years in higher ed. (biology, forest ecology) than I want to admit, and trees still surprise me, sometimes at inopportune times.

 

[OTG BOSTON]

Hey Doc,

He successfully completed the mission, give 'em a break, the Boys were kinda piling on him last year. He gave credit where it was due.

 

[beowulf343]

It is very easy to screw up in a tree, even with all the knowledge and training of an expert.

BTW, I spent far too many years in higher ed. (biology, forest ecology) than I want to admit, and trees still surprise me, sometimes at inopportune times.

Boy, you are not kidding there! Reading about tree work, watching tree work done, and figuring out what to do is all well and good, but until you actually get up in a tree and see what can happen, (and how quick it can happen), you have no idea what the job entails. I swear i've seen branches defy the laws of gravity!

 

[Doctor Dave]

Hey Doc,

He successfully completed the mission, give 'em a break, the Boys were kinda piling on him last year. He gave credit where it was due.

I jumped in on the thread without reading the first few pages. I just got a bit set off by his tone in one of his replies. Nice to know he wasn't scraped up off of the ground.

 

[EngineerDude]

Jeez, I hope this can be my last post on this thread

CJ-7 said:

... While engineers are certainly not the only ones in this category, they are generally trained to set realistic goals, analyze the situation and risks, look at the alternatives, and plan a solution that will meet the goals and solve the problem within an acceptable level of risk.

...

To me the key is knowing and accepting the risks, period.

Well put. And I completely agree. And in an effort to avoid another feeding frenzy on engineers and their attitudes, I wish to re-emphasize CJ's statement that the thought process he refers to is shared by non-engineers as well. It is this thought process that I'm focusing on, rather than education/vocation.

Still, the thoughts that some reading this thread will have is that lacking experience, I couldn't possibly have fully known (and therefore managed) the risks. My two-part response to this would be that: 1) if we all held to this position, would anything new ever be attempted? (and is that the way we want to live?), and 2) training, other life experience, and proper preparation do render it possible to effectively manage risk to an acceptable level. We all do this constantly in our daily lives. What differentiates tree climbing and all other pursuits that involve life safety is the fact that these are extreme activities, and in these situations the level of "acceptable risk" is orders of magnitude lower than for most day to day stuff.

By the way, I also respect the views and agree with the statements made by many of the others responding to this thread, in particular that this is a lot harder than it looks (i.e. from the ground), and that unexpected things can happen, generally very quickly, and that generally these are not good.

That's about all I've got left for this thread. So, now the work climbing is done (at least for now), and it's on to rec climbing.