MD's watering page

[M.D. Vaden]

Can't debate the veracity of their statements without a link, Vaden.
-Ralph

Don't need a link.

Are you saying that you've never read any ISA or college textbooks that cover the permanent wilting point?

Trees must have moisture. The presence of moisture, means something is moist.

To avoid the wilting point, every day, means adding enough moisture so roots are always moist.

Like I said, I have no need for a link. I don't even have need to defend my advice page.

I'm not the one who posted the past few days on the internet, that it's bad to keep tree roots moist.

Somebody else did that.

Now it's in somebody elses lap to defend their magic trees that don't need moisture - especially newly planted.

We're not talking saturated, waterlogged or wet, here. But moist.

That's why I'm looking for these magic trees from Jack's nursery of trees that can live without moisture.

By the way, here's the online seminar article on tree watering...

http://on-line-seminars.com/pb/wp_bb4b9020.html?0.9645236359899118

As we note, the article says nothing about flooding to the point of preventing gas exchange.

It's an article on watering, not flooding.

 

[begleytree]

Isa? nope, any mags/ sales flyers I get from them go into the trash unopened. Made that mistake once.
by permanant wilting point, are you actually refering to field capacity? the point at which all available moisture is locked to the soil, and unavailable to the tree? And for clarification, I never said trees (esp newely planted ones) don't need water. I said don't drown them, and that your soil is prob far differrent from ours, and that factors in. The watering schedule you propose would drown a newly planted tree in this region.
I can't believe you are so defensive. You post your ideas ( in a flashy moving banner in your sig line, no less) on a public board of trained and certified arborists, and expect no feedback? Expect no disagreements?
Please show me where I (or Mike, but he can speak for himself and doesn't need me to) advocated throwing a tree in a hole and never returning. I didnt say never water the tree, I said that I don't think that drowning a newly planted tree is good for it's health. You do what you think is best for you, and I'll do the same for me. I do wish our resident root guy would chime in here, but he's keeping silent.
And be careful of what 'research' comes out of colleges these days. Most of it is geared towards the professors' ideas (ie, politics, art, religion, sexual preferences, race, ect) and not actual scientific research, imo.
Funny enough, I spoke about your 'roots only grow in the persence of water' hypothesis with Dr. Ralph Wisniewski, (retired) prof of dendrology at Ohio university southern campus. He said it was about the silliest idea he's heard in a long time, and would very much like to see your proof.

-Ralph

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Hey, by the way, you guys know I'm half-way kidding with you, don't you?

:yoyo: :yoyo: :yoyo:

We've been on this forum so long, we're almost like family.

Most of the time, we're actually saying the same thing, but it doesn't seem that way.

 

[Ekka]

I'm staying out of this debate .... we got a drought here and there's way more alive than dead trees. But they're established ones.

I remember the lady at the nursery telling me often that when planting new stuff, say 8" pot, to submerse the pot in a bucket of water till it doesn't float then plant. Can't say I ever did.

But what appears to be the problem is that coarse crappy potting mix dries out and becomes hydrophobic. Many times when littlies are dead you pull them out of the hole and the surrounding soil is moist but the potted root ball is dry as a bone ... hence the dunking recommended by her.

But this debate, if you can call it that, is on bigger stuff.

When I used to plant into huge pots I used to mix my own potting mix, it was nothing like that crap that come with regular pots, mine was soil, you know, loamy sand and organic soil mix with some Searles potting mix that contained water crystals and osmacote fert. That potting mix stuff is junk IMO.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

I'm staying out of this debate .... we got a drought here and there's way more alive than dead trees. But they're established ones.

I remember the lady at the nursery telling me often that when planting new stuff, say 8" pot, to submerse the pot in a bucket of water till it doesn't float then plant. Can't say I ever did.

But what appears to be the problem is that coarse crappy potting mix dries out and becomes hydrophobic. Many times when littlies are dead you pull them out of the hole and the surrounding soil is moist but the potted root ball is dry as a bone ... hence the dunking recommended by her.

But this debate, if you can call it that, is on bigger stuff.

When I used to plant into huge pots I used to mix my own potting mix, it was nothing like that crap that come with regular pots, mine was soil, you know, loamy sand and organic soil mix with some Searles potting mix that contained water crystals and osmacote fert. That potting mix stuff is junk IMO.

I was thinking about potting mixes yesterday, as well as clay root balls.

The clay ball of some trees can be pretty mean about resaturating once they dry, since water moves in so slow. The backfill almost has to be flooded to let them sit like a tea bag, if they dry.

Then the potting mix / fine bark looking "soil", almost seems to repel water like thatch when it dries. It almost takes repeated spraying until it finally tends to start absorbing. I suppose that may be the stuff you are referring too.

 

[Elmore]

Planting and establishing trees in the landscape

Today I spoke with an arborist from Engineered Watering Solutions near Atlanta, GA and he suggested that I check out the info from Dr. Edward F. Gilman, Professor, Environmental Horticulture Department at the University of Florida.
Some good info...check it out.

Irrigation management after planting :
http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/planting/irrigation.htm

Planting trees in landscapes :
http://hort.ufl.edu/woody/planting/

 

[Ekka]

Well from everything I've read it appears Vaden's right.

Cheers

 

[Darrell]

New Trees vs. Established Trees

Today I spoke with an arborist from Engineered Watering Solutions near Atlanta, GA and he suggested that I check out the info from Dr. Edward F. Gilman, Professor, Environmental Horticulture Department at the University of Florida.

Hello all... I'm new here... but, since I was quoted I thought I'd throw 2 cents into the fray. Without having studied all of the previous debate on the topic, here goes nothin':

1. I think people often confuse proper watering practices for new trees with those for older, established trees. Even ISA texts often speak more towards watering practices for established trees.

2. The differences?
a). The soil has settled (eg: normalized or compacted) around the roots on older, established trees; causing the soil macropores to be tight... On newly planted trees, the soil is recently disturbed and has relatively gaping macropores. In short, the soil around the root system of a newly planted tree is far more porous than that found around a well established tree.
b). In all but a few cases, a newly planted tree is far more accustomed to a regular feeding schedule (as found in the nursery or growing field). An older tree has learned that this isn't life in the real world.
c). Getting water into the O and A soil horizons is really too easy on a newly planted tree... and relatively much harder on an established tree with settled soil.

The research clearly demonstrates that light and frequent irrigation is the best choice for watering newly planted trees. HOWEVER, to reap the benefits of this approach, one must make sure not to over water. If you do, oxygen is displaced from the soil macropores, the roots die from their inability to respire... and when you pull up the dead tree and find rotted roots, you'll claim it was killed by "root rot". This is not a "chicken or egg" issue, the roots died from a lack of oxygen... then rotted... then you pulled up the tree and diagnosed "root rot".

For this reason, if you can't manage light and frequent irrigation properly, you should avoid it altogether... and stick with the old paradigm of "once or twice a week" saturation... with drying in between.

Over the past 2 years, I've seen this hold true on over 30,000 newly planted trees, ranging in caliper from 1" to 9", most being in the 2-3" caliper.

Over 'n Out,
Darrell
ISA #SO-5437A

 

[Elmore]

Good to see that you got on here Darrell. Look forward to hearing more from you. I just planted a nice little 7g Magnolia grandiflora 'Little Gem' today. Gave it a bunch of repeated waterings. Watched the little bubbles pop to the surface. I need to go back there and give it more tomorrow. Wish I had an Ooze Tube on it now. It would save me the time of running back to the site and the worry about successful establishment.

<img src="http://www.pathwaystoperennials.com/upload/p2p/ooze_tube.jpg">
Ooze Tubes installed on Costco development

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Elmore...

You anchor your trees almost exactly like mine.

We get a bit of sun here, so I wrap my trunks with window screen, double layered and pinch-stapled. It's my favoriite wrap.

And then I water them nicely

 

[Elmore]

Elmore...

You anchor your trees almost exactly like mine.

We get a bit of sun here, so I wrap my trunks with window screen, double layered and pinch-stapled. It's my favoriite wrap.

And then I water them nicely

Not really...that picture is not of my work. I just obtained it from google. I don't like staking, guying or anchoring newly planted trees unless absolutely necessary.

 

[Darrell]

Not really...that picture is not of my work. I just obtained it from google. I don't like staking, guying or anchoring newly planted trees unless absolutely necessary.

The anchoring done in the Elmore's photo was done by Tri-States Landscaping, a large commercial contractor based in the Atlanta area. The trees shown in the photo are 6" caliper trees and the staking method was specified by Costco's LA.

Nonetheless, my vote is with Elmore... don't stake unless absolutely necessary. Why? The unstaked tree will develop a more natural stem taper. Perhaps more importantly, the tree will also grow more roots faster when allowed to flex naturally in the wind...

When staking is necessary, there are some folks getting really good results by "staking" the root ball instead of guying the tree. In places where staking is truly necessary (Florida, as perhaps the best example... because of hurricanes and sandy soils), staking by the root ball allows the benefits described above and also protects the tree more in high wind events. Why? The tree can bend naturally to relieve wind loads. As the canopy gets closer to the ground, the wind velocities are lower... the "canopy sail" also gets smaller as the scaffold branches collapse naturally into the main stem.

This forum is fun!
Darrell
:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[M.D. Vaden]

The anchoring done in the Elmore's photo was done by Tri-States Landscaping, a large commercial contractor based in the Atlanta area. The trees shown in the photo are 6" caliper trees and the staking method was specified by Costco's LA.

Nonetheless, my vote is with Elmore... don't stake unless absolutely necessary. Why? The unstaked tree will develop a more natural stem taper. Perhaps more importantly, the tree will also grow more roots faster when allowed to flex naturally in the wind...

This forum is fun!
Darrell
:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:

I feel the same way. I only stake about 5% of the trees that I put in. Usually for people that are really persistent about wanting stakes. They are such nuisance too (the stakes, that is).

That's a nice benefit of a well developed rootball - eliminates the need for staking.