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Ms880 milling

csmillingnoob

csmillingnoob

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I bought a used one milled some live oak smoked a piston took it to a local saw shop replaced cylinder and piston. Then I got a pecan tree 11 1/2 foot trunk cut 2 slabs one day no problem the next day into my third slab smoked it again. Now I am trying to figure out way out of tune or pushing it too hard
Nose oiler? “Pushing too hard” with that big saw brings some questions to mind. Chain oil is one.

I cut live oak and pecan too. HARD wood. So far, I haven’t gone beyond 32’ diameter but plan to go wider due to recent upgrade in power head. Bark is nasty with sand here in Southwest Georgia. Wood has sand too but not as bad as the bark. I burnt up a 372xp bucking nasty fern covered live oak limbs pushing a dull chain at the end of a long day when I should stopped to sharpen. My bad.

sharpening can be an issue if you find yourself pushing too hard on a saw as powerful as yours. 12 feet pecan needs resharpening after every run. I can feel a huge difference in cut efficiency at two feet and 10 feet. So, I’m sharpening after every run or changing chains. With a debarker it might be different. I dunno’.

unlevel mill alignment can work your saw too hard as well if the cutting edge is rising or diving.

yeah, it’s hot here too. I have pretty much given up Summer milling due to vapor lock issues - for both me and the saw. Summer is for flattening in (under) the pole barn.

good luck in finding your problem. You are cutting two of the hardest woods commonly seen in the US.
 

MFV

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Texas
Oh crap I forgot about this I had a busy weekend I will do this when I get home to night I was using a chain from baily’s but I had made about 8 cuts with it
 

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MFV

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Location
Texas
I don’t know if this is what you need I am not a very good chain photographer
 

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BobL

No longer addicted to AS
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Your rakers are too high - it looks like they have never been lowered?
The angle represented by the two blue lines in teh photo below should be 6º or more.
On yours I measure it to ~4º which will produce a lot of fine dust and cause you to push hard and overheat the engine.
On my 880 in Aussie hard wood I use 6.5º , on your woods you could use 7 or even 7.5º
On my 441 with the Lopro chains I use 7º

The standard rakers gauges supplied by chain manufacturers do not generate optimised rakers for milling.
As a rough guide when the raker depth are 1/10 of the gullet width the raker angle (blue lines in Photo) will be 5.7º
To get ~7º raker angle the raker depth should be 1/8th of the gullet width.
The is called "progressive raker depth setting" - read up about in on the sticky in the hot saws chain sharpening forum.

raker1.jpg
The side/top plate cutting angle could also perhaps be more aggressive.
Top one is Will Malloffs chains bottom one is mine - notice how low the rakers are. and how loped my raker top is.

MalloffBobLchain2.jpg

And clean those gullets out so they look like those above.
All these things add up to make a significant difference.
 
csmillingnoob

csmillingnoob

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I don’t know if this is what you need I am not a very good chain photographer

First of all, take everything Bob L says to the bank. If I say anything that contradicts him, strike waht I say.

However, I will say that Bob teaches Chainsaw sharpening 301. It can be difficult for average Joe Cutter (like me) to follow his lessons because they are a bit advanced. You might find a Sharpening 102 class more beneficial.

I don't know if you even use a raker guide at all. Below is my Husqvarna "field guide." (I'm a bit more advanced in my shop, but nowhere near Bob's level)
1605623489447.png

The flat surface is the raker guide. The notch at the front fits in behind a link. The two interior holes allow you a choice of filing down an aggressive raker reduction for softwood or a more gentle reduction for hardwood cross-cutting safety. Forget that in milling. You want aggressive to keep your chain pulled into the wood. Use the softwood notch. Is this "progressive raker setting?" No. But it's quazi-progressive in comparison with the flat guides that simply fit over the top of the cutters.

I truly field sharpen cutters or change chains every 8-12 ft cut in pecan or live oak. I generally drop the rakers on every third cutter filing.

Were talking 880, so power generally is not an issue.

1. Proper mill alignment. You need to be cutting 9/4' on both ends and at all 4 corners of the slab. Bad first cut multiplies your problem with each cut.
2. Sharp Chain with aggressive rakers.
3. Sufficient oil on that sharp chain.
4. Are you throwing chips or dust? It won't be like crosscutting, but you should not be throwing dust. It's harder to tell with a full tooth chain - easier on a skip tooth.
5. Cut down hill.
 

MFV

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Joined
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Messages
70
Location
Texas
First of all, take everything Bob L says to the bank. If I say anything that contradicts him, strike waht I say.

However, I will say that Bob teaches Chainsaw sharpening 301. It can be difficult for average Joe Cutter (like me) to follow his lessons because they are a bit advanced. You might find a Sharpening 102 class more beneficial.

I don't know if you even use a raker guide at all. Below is my Husqvarna "field guide." (I'm a bit more advanced in my shop, but nowhere near Bob's level)
View attachment 868725

The flat surface is the raker guide. The notch at the front fits in behind a link. The two interior holes allow you a choice of filing down an aggressive raker reduction for softwood or a more gentle reduction for hardwood cross-cutting safety. Forget that in milling. You want aggressive to keep your chain pulled into the wood. Use the softwood notch. Is this "progressive raker setting?" No. But it's quazi-progressive in comparison with the flat guides that simply fit over the top of the cutters.

I truly field sharpen cutters or change chains every 8-12 ft cut in pecan or live oak. I generally drop the rakers on every third cutter filing.

Were talking 880, so power generally is not an issue.

1. Proper mill alignment. You need to be cutting 9/4' on both ends and at all 4 corners of the slab. Bad first cut multiplies your problem with each cut.
2. Sharp Chain with aggressive rakers.
3. Sufficient oil on that sharp chain.
4. Are you throwing chips or dust? It won't be like crosscutting, but you should not be throwing dust. It's harder to tell with a full tooth chain - easier on a skip tooth.
5. Cut down hill.
So I cut way more than 12’ on that chain . I was throwing chips. I do run a skip chain on my small saw and was thinking about buying one for this saw
 
csmillingnoob

csmillingnoob

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So I cut way more than 12’ on that chain . I was throwing chips. I do run a skip chain on my small saw and was thinking about buying one for this saw
Skip chain advantage on big bars. Better chip/dust clearance and fewer cutters to file.

So, you must be cutting more than one slab before sharpening. Two12 footers in red oak, okay. My 390xp and I didn't like two pecan. I've never tried a 12 ft live oak before sharpening. Never had a live oak log over 9 ft and I sharpened after each cut then.

Bob L might laugh a bit, but pecan and live oak are hard . Perhaps more importantly, the bark (in my experience) is nasty and really dulls chains fast. So, I sharpen after every cut in these woods. Cedar is a different story.
 

BobL

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The flat surface is the raker guide. The notch at the front fits in behind a link. The two interior holes allow you a choice of filing down an aggressive raker reduction for softwood or a more gentle reduction for hardwood cross-cutting safety. Forget that in milling. You want aggressive to keep your chain pulled into the wood. Use the softwood notch. Is this "progressive raker setting?" No. But it's quazi-progressive in comparison with the flat guides that simply fit over the top of the cutters.
Yep those flat plates are definitely better than nothing but my method is not rocket science.

Put a steel ruler across the top of the cutters and measure a few of the raker depth with a feeler gauge. Then use digital callipers to measure the cutter gullet widths. if the raker depth is less than 1/10th of the gullet width the chains will not cut efficiently. Then file the raker down until it exceeds 1/10th of the gullet width. Although I do this, there's no need to do this on every raker, Maybe do it on 3-4 rakers and count how many file swipes of the raker are needed to achieve the 1/10th rule. Lets say you need 8 swipes on one raker, 7 on another and 10 on another. Then I would do 8 swipes on the remainder.
If one of the rakers is really low you can always take more swipes off the cutter - it doesn't matter if it shortens the cutter - read on

Up to a point this method means not worrying about getting all the cutters the same length. I stopped worrying about this back in 2009 and have had no problems. Cutters should be touched up to just removing edge glint. Longer cutters will blunt faster so will develop more edge glint which means next time you will swipe them a bit more to remove the glint and bring them back into line with the others. shorter cutters do the opposite. If I see a cutter is obviously too long I give it a couple of extra swipes.

When I sharpen in the the field don't measure the raker depths I just give the rakers 3 swipes every 3-4 cutter touch ups. Then at the end of the day back i my shop I will measure the raker and adjust accordingly.

I truly field sharpen cutters or change chains every 8-12 ft cut in pecan or live oak. I generally drop the rakers on every third cutter filing.
I work on sqft of cut rates than length. Using full comp chain Aussie hardwood I file after about every 32sqft of cut. On softer wood I might go to 45sqft.
I could cut a bit more area but this means pushing the mill harder and because I'm not fit this just tires me out too quickly.

RE: skip chain.
Swings and round abouts. While skip chain has fewer cutters and hence is theoretically faster to sharpen, each cutter does more work so goes blunt faster so it needs to be sharpened more often . Remember on a full comp chain only every 3rd or 4th cutter is making a full depth cut during any one pass.
 
csmillingnoob

csmillingnoob

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Yep those flat plates are definitely better than nothing but my method is not rocket science.

Put a steel ruler across the top of the cutters and measure a few of the raker depth with a feeler gauge. Then use digital callipers to measure the cutter gullet widths. if the raker depth is less than 1/10th of the gullet width the chains will not cut efficiently. Then file the raker down until it exceeds 1/10th of the gullet width. Although I do this, there's no need to do this on every raker, Maybe do it on 3-4 rakers and count how many file swipes of the raker are needed to achieve the 1/10th rule. Lets say you need 8 swipes on one raker, 7 on another and 10 on another. Then I would do 8 swipes on the remainder.
If one of the rakers is really low you can always take more swipes off the cutter - it doesn't matter if it shortens the cutter - read on

Up to a point this method means not worrying about getting all the cutters the same length. I stopped worrying about this back in 2009 and have had no problems. Cutters should be touched up to just removing edge glint. Longer cutters will blunt faster so will develop more edge glint which means next time you will swipe them a bit more to remove the glint and bring them back into line with the others. shorter cutters do the opposite. If I see a cutter is obviously too long I give it a couple of extra swipes.

When I sharpen in the the field don't measure the raker depths I just give the rakers 3 swipes every 3-4 cutter touch ups. Then at the end of the day back i my shop I will measure the raker and adjust accordingly.


I work on sqft of cut rates than length. Using full comp chain Aussie hardwood I file after about every 32sqft of cut. On softer wood I might go to 45sqft.
I could cut a bit more area but this means pushing the mill harder and because I'm not fit this just tires me out too quickly.

RE: skip chain.
Swings and round abouts. While skip chain has fewer cutters and hence is theoretically faster to sharpen, each cutter does more work so goes blunt faster so it needs to be sharpened more often . Remember on a full comp chain only every 3rd or 4th cutter is making a full depth cut during any one pass.
Never thought about square footage consideration - before. I will now.

Our live oak has a Janka hardness of 2,680 lbf - comparable to your stuff. I milled 36" x 9' and HAD to sharpen on every cut. That's 27 sq feet, so your 32sqft rule of thumb estimate looks to work. Two cuts without sharpening just didn't work for me. Too much work after about the halfway point - too much temptation to seesaw. (I am gonna break my new 3120 in this weekend bucking a two-year old, hurricane-downed live oak. Thankfully, most of the dirt in the ferngrowth has fallen off the bark)

Pecan has a Janka hardness of "only" 1,820 lbf. Most of my cuts have been 30"ish x12'. That's 30 sq feet. Yeah, I have cut two 12 footers, but I was just working too hard on the last half. Once again, your 32sqft rule looks right to me. Though softer than your Aussie woods, pecan is hard enough to make me grunt with less than a very sharp chain. Did I mention how nasty and sand-filled the bark is? I'm 65 and relatively fit but ride a desk most of the time, so not real fit.

Thank you Bob
 

BobL

No longer addicted to AS
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Never thought about square footage consideration - before. I will now.

Our live oak has a Janka hardness of 2,680 lbf - comparable to your stuff. I milled 36" x 9' and HAD to sharpen on every cut. That's 27 sq feet, so your 32sqft rule of thumb estimate looks to work. Two cuts without sharpening just didn't work for me. Too much work after about the halfway point - too much temptation to seesaw.
Yep same for me, on bigger logs I found its not worth pulling the mill of the cut to sharpen teh chain - better to start off with a freshly sharpened chain.
 
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