"Nattering Nabobs of Negativism"

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pdqdl

Old enough to know better.
AS Supporting Member.
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I have been doing a little private messaging with another member who stated that he was reluctant to actively post in this forum because of the typical responses from the established members; those fellows who are supposed to be supportive of the newbies.

I think he has a good point.

Questions to this forum often seem to follow one of these formats:
1. I'm a newbie, and would like to get in the business. Most of the advice is geared towards chasing them away from the trade.
2. I have a tree problem, I need some advice. Most of the responses run along the lines of "don't do it, you are unqualified". I personally believe that they already know that; this is why they asked for advice.
3. Equipment and hardware questions. Everyone seems to enjoy answering these questions.
4. Tree climbing and trimming technique questions. Everyone seems to enjoy answering these questions also.

I think that it is a shame that most of the questions posted in this forum gather up a long series of negative responses that are clearly intended to discourage the aspiring arborist to seek another trade or to abandon whatever project they were attempting. I think it is entirely appropriate for us to give advice that includes all of the usual precautionary comments, but I really do not think that it is our job to dump disillusionment and despair on everyone that posts in this forum.

I sincerely doubt that anyone will ever be sued for the advice they give here online, and I really doubt that all of the discouraging advice is genuinely aimed at the original poster's best interests. We all know the tree work is dangerous, but I personally believe that a good deal of the advice is rooted in trade protectionism.

I also think that a lot of the negative responses are the result of regret on the part of the experienced tree workers for their own career path. I think it behooves us to figure out a way to be realistic with aspiring tree workers without being so discouraging and negative on the topic.

Your comments are welcome! Feel free to let me have it, either pro or con, agree or disagree. :msp_sneaky:
 
A baboon could possibly become an ISA Certified Arborist. :poke:
 
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Pdqdl, that was well put. A lot of replies to newbie questions seem to be an attempt to run them off. I cant understand that at all. I love to share any education I have obtained over the years with anyone that's willing to ask and listen no matter what the subject.
 
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I am not sure what you intend by that comment. This thread is about the comments by the experienced to those that are requesting advice.
And stuff like that.

Well, in that case, my conscience is clear, cause I'm very merciful and nice to those tender souls seeking enlightenment. Unlike that bully; Jeff.
 
I did call him that once, but that was in homeowner forum. As I recall, he did not take kindly to my remarks.

Homeowner was completely off topic, and Jeff was kind enough to point that out to them in a somewhat sarcastic manner. I just thought he was being a bit blunt.
 
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For the most part what I see is honest advice being given.


Members here don't make the staying or leaving decision, the newbie does.

All true; I don't argue the point. There are certainly a lot of negative aspects to the business, and if you really feel that way, it is not dishonest to tell an aspiring arborist that the job sucks and that they will do better to remain a fully employed janitor. It certainly isn't wrong to tell some newbie that they are about to kill themselves trying to climb a dangerous tree.

I just think that we emphasis the negative in this forum and frequently discourage the positive.

I rescued a homeowner today who frantically stopped at my shop; he was stopping at each tree service in the area. Some hack working off a ladder had abandoned a 1/2 cut locust tree in his back yard. Literally! The 20' high cut was done all wrong, a nearly vertical slice through the trunk with no wedge. They fled the scene when they determined that the tree would go the other way. The cut would close and open in the breeze. Telephone service line on the west, chain link fence on the south, Satellite dish on the east, and other trees were on the north.

If a newbie tree climber came to this forum with pictures, what would you tell him to do?
 
How about the ones who ask for advice...and then argue with it?

How about the ones who don't really want advice but want us to validate something they've already decided to do...whether it makes sense or not?

Those kind of people deserve to be treated with a rich disdain and sent somewhere else to aggravate people who might possibly have time for them.

That being said...If a person, newbie or not, asks a valid question and has a serious need to know and treats the advice given with the consideration and the respect it deserves I think we're obligated to help. More than obligated really. New people have to go somewhere for information and some of them come here, stumbling and nervous and unsure of themselves, to ask their questions.
Are their questions irritating and redundant? Yes, almost always, because we've heard them all before. But to the newbie they're an honest appeal for help and information. They should be treated as such.

I think that there are a lot of things in common between arborists and loggers and this is one of them. Are new guys a PITA? Of course. Do they screw up? Almost inevitably. Do we run them off for that or do we explain things, again and patiently, and with any luck at all watch them progress into something useful and productive? That's an easy choice.

Somebody somewhere along the line answered our dumb questions. Now it's our turn. If the old timers I learned from had the self control to keep from strangling me I guess I can do the same.
 
Good thread. And yes, it can get a little rough, but this is a rough business, and gravity doesn't care if you're feelings get hurt. And honestly, to second Bob, a lot of the responses newbies get are based on the attitudes they bring in. He's absolutely right, half these guys aren't looking for advice, they're looking for permission to be right.

As far as the guys that come on here saying "I've decided to become a tree guy, I just got a rope and saddle off ebay" my advice will always be the same: you can't learn this job off the internet. Go drag some brush and pay your dues. Not out of "trade protection", but because that's the only way you can learn this business, out in the field. There is no room for ego in this business, because gravity doesn't care how you feel about yourself. And honestly, I've spent the last twenty years learning my trade, and still have lot's to learn. And when a newbie come's storming on the scene and just wants a simple answer to a complex question, that dog just don't hunt, cause what you don't know will kill ya. Maybe not this time, but eventually the law of averages will catch up.

As far as the ho forum goes, same thing. A guy posts a pic and says" I've got this tree that broke over in the last storm, and is tangled up in two other trees. I have a wild thing and a 20' ladder, any advice?" My advice will always be to hire a pro. They're gonna do what they're gonna do. But one thing I will not do is offer advice that will get someone hurt. My greatest fear is to have someone's last thoughts be "well ####, Jeff said it would be ok." Pdql, you and I butted heads a little bit on the chainsaw forum a week or two ago on that thread about cutting off a ladder. Have I cut off a ladder before? Of course I have, but I was still tied in, and I did with full knowledge of the risks involved and the safe way to do it. I can't teach that over the internet, that is years of experience, and so the best, safest advice to a homeowner is don't do it ever.

Having said all that, yes, it can get a little harsh here, but it's a harsh business, and for heaven's sake, I've never seen a guy hurt over the internet, but I've seen too damn many hurt by trees. Jeff
 
Interesting thread. Seems to be two threads in one. Advice to people (firemen) who want to get into tree business, and questions from newbies about what is a good idea. First off, as a professional heterosexual male escort I am good at bringing the wood, but not very good at falling wood. That being said, many of the homeowners questions are clearly a very bad idea. For full disclosure, I'm trying to get an invite to his GTG, but Jolly Jeff hit the nail on the head. As did that go-bob-it guy:cheers:
 
Jeff remember the guy that posted here a few weeks ago about 120ft. White oak with the vertical 10 foot split down the middle next to the glass driveway? He wanted advice yet had every intention of climbing that tree.
 
Jeff remember the guy that posted here a few weeks ago about 120ft. White oak with the vertical 10 foot split down the middle next to the glass driveway? He wanted advice yet had every intention of climbing that tree.

Yup, he came to mind. He posted a 101 question in the commercial forum. Could have been a homeowner, how do ya know? So I asked him some basic questions, and he went off from there. We still haven't seen any triumphant "I told ya so" pics. I fear the worst on that one. And I'm sure not gonna give a guy permission and or advice for a tree like that off a couple pics on the internet. I would much rather he ended up embarrassed and alive than offended and dead.
 
It's me

I am the member pdq is referring to. After reading many of the responses to this thread the demeanor behind the answers to the questions are a bit clearer. As a new-ish member here I was reluctant to post because it seemed most responses were in a negative light, telling people to move on and find something else to do. Reading this thread and looking back on some of the posts I see y'all are correct with the points. Esp the "tell me I'm right" question. I respect y'alls opinion and insight, didn't want to get off on the wrong foot with a "dumb question"
 
I am the member pdq is referring to. After reading many of the responses to this thread the demeanor behind the answers to the questions are a bit clearer. As a new-ish member here I was reluctant to post because it seemed most responses were in a negative light, telling people to move on and find something else to do. Reading this thread and looking back on some of the posts I see y'all are correct with the points. Esp the "tell me I'm right" question. I respect y'alls opinion and insight, didn't want to get off on the wrong foot with a "dumb question"

I doubt that you could ask a "dumb question" that one of us hasn't asked somebody at some point in our life.
When I was starting out I had more dumb questions than most but that was long before the 'net and I had to ask my questions in person. I worked around a bunch of guys that weren't very tactful and didn't spend a lot of time figuring out how to save my feelings. They didn't have much mercy. They knew their stuff though and once they saw I was serious they started sharing what they knew.

There's a lot of practical experience and knowledge here and it's available to you for the asking.

Enjoy. And welcome to AS.
 
The thicker your skin is the better off you'll be. Welcome to AS and ask away.:cheers:

And just a little heads up remember to keep newb questions in 101.
 

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