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New chain vs sharpened.

Discussion in 'Chainsaw' started by Doug M, Dec 7, 2018.

  1. Westboastfaller

    Westboastfaller Addicted to ArboristSite

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    @jchipps
    good to see another experienced Faller around man.

    Jump in and help out. lots to write about

    If he wants us to wright everything about back cuts...that's a lot.

    I will be 'on wedging all week...haha
     
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  2. jakethesnake

    jakethesnake ArboristSite Guru

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    Well hell that makes sense enough to me. I like that screwed up wedge as I have a tendency to knick them on smaller trees. As I’m sure you could tell. The red head ones are my best ones yes. That’s why I avoid cutting into them. They’ll get their turn. I never fully thought about the leverage difference between the hinge being in one place or another. I cut around ditches so I don’t get level ground. Lots of times the ditch is full of water. I’m sure it’s nothing like working up in a damn hill but you still don’t get to pick exactly where you’d prefer to be. If I could work around the whole tree most of the time I wouldn’t need to tip them over.
     
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  3. rogue60

    rogue60 ArboristSite Operative

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    Wtf was the OP"s question again? seems to have got lost in all the bs?
    I tried reading this thread but I ended up getting up and for real I walked into a wall! mouth breathing and all!! Lol
     
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  4. Overkill338

    Overkill338 Bars Of Stihl

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    If the tree needs a lot of wedging, doesnt it work better to start with a back cut and get the wedges in early? That way the face cut doesnt cause more weight to set back. Is my thinking flawed?
     
  5. Westboastfaller

    Westboastfaller Addicted to ArboristSite

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    My pleasure Ron

    Yes the U/C depth looked good in all the others I saw. "forward leaner"
    that one was about right depth.
    The more base you take out of the front, the greater the pull at the back It will break with more holding wood.
    doesn't take much lean with 170ft trees. destroy the wood if 'you' aren't thinking about everything. Can create a higher barber chair potential too in cases.

    Ok you were purposely tapering the holding wood. So you were orientated then with back cut to undercut.
    In stead of doing that then that's where you do your block face As you guys call it. That's where you have a vertical section at the back right?
    We call it a 'Johny hold me tight'
    usually make about three saw cerf cuts. or bore the vertical section face.
    the other cuts can be both flat cuts (Box cut / channel cut) then put a little west coast swanson/ snipe in the front. they hold on nice. if you think you need more to ensure the fibers peel down then bore through behind the hold wood.
    in the case with that leaner you could have predetermined your hold wood
    by boring back say 1 1/5" behind your block face. If it starts falling at 4" thich hold wood it will break the back fibers first in order to advance. when it hits your vertical bore then it will peal down like a 4" tounge. instead of shearing off and going with gravity.

    lots of species work good without the inside bore.

    Sometimes I will start with two parelell vertical bores then box cut the face. if its small then I'll just back cut it and call it a day. if Im slashing stuff and I don't want to chase them down a steep hill and slash them. fast and slash wires good aim isn't to crucial in those at all.


    Falling, I still sight line on the first bore. just estimate how far off you are standing from centre before the bore. If its 5ft then sight straight a head 5ft off your mark then flip vertical. or unless you have top sight lines
     
  6. Trx250r180

    Trx250r180 Saw polisher

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    That works pretty good ,Works good falling into the wind also ,or for going against 180 degrees the lean .
    sorry my answer is not 3 pages long like Jamie's .;)
     
  7. rwoods

    rwoods Addicted to ArboristSite

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    I have never intentionally tried a block face on a big tree. I use them a lot on little stuff around houses and plants to ease the tree over. Also have never tried the swizzle wheel or whatever you call stacking kerfs under the face. Usually in my low risk environment the tapered hinge provides enough swing. I would love to be turned loose with enough trees to try these other methods.

    Anyway I still need to better my sharpenning skills.

    Ron
     
  8. Westboastfaller

    Westboastfaller Addicted to ArboristSite

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    lol. You just leave us wanting more.:popcorn2: funny part is I haven't answered Jake yet, you do realize? Just about finished with the theory part though. How's it going there Brian? long time.
     
  9. Trx250r180

    Trx250r180 Saw polisher

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    Hullo Jamie .
     
  10. drumbum

    drumbum ArboristSite Operative

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    How I define "sharper", is:
    Cutter needs to be able to split one average mustache hair thrice length wise in a lateral plane; i.e. no gravity assist, w/ no more than .03 PSI or .08 inch pounds of torque if mounted on bar/fixture. Test must be conducted with conditions roughly equal to; 75 degrees F 60% relative humidity and no more than 101,325 pascals atmospheric pressure @30hg.

    Hair must be .5" in length and grasped by fixture .1" from end.

    If any bending of hair on first cut, test is recorded as fail
    If any bending on second cut has deflection greater than 4%, test is recorded as fail.
    These are Antarctican Governmental standards.

    Hope this helps.
     
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  11. HarleyT

    HarleyT Tree Freak

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    Is that a man's?

    Or a woman's?
     
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  12. drumbum

    drumbum ArboristSite Operative

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    North American male or eastern European female.



    Jeez louise, I wish I would have finished reading the whole thread BEFORE posting.
     
  13. holeycow

    holeycow Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Jeez Louise,

    There is no unit of measure; “moustache hair”.

    Even if there was, you haven’t specified whether that is a black one, a brown one, or a blonde one...
     
  14. HarleyT

    HarleyT Tree Freak

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    Italian girls!!
     
  15. jakethesnake

    jakethesnake ArboristSite Guru

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    You’ve failed us all. You’ve left me uninstructed
     
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  16. Westboastfaller

    Westboastfaller Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Right @jakethesnake but I am not my symptoms. I have a different mindset that creates challenges.

    -things I need to do in my life.
    1) finish what I started^^
    2) Don't manage my priorities by interest but by importance and follow them though accordingly.

    So i'm back.
    (justified as A priority under edjemication

    I want to finish out a little more theory.

    @jchipps was saying the tree sits back hard on the wedges with a deep undercut. Its a bit of a paradox
    when you look at it like distributing more weight to the other side of the see saw?

    If say 15% deeper U/C moved 1000 lb to the 'right side of the see saw',, shouldn't it be lighter on the wedges?
    He is/was a faller and his experience tells him what he knows.

    The two reasons why it sits back hard is firstly the leaning tree is self supporting.
    The fibers have the most leverage at the 'top' (tension wood area). think back strap technique or bucking a suspended log end and leaving a small top sec at the top for last. it will hold its own weight better.
    Like lifting or holding something closest to the base. leverage is lost dramatically and it becomes heavier.
    Because the tree is self holding you want to use it to your advantage on a 'hard wedge'
    1) shallow U/C
    2) cut and chase
    basically cut and wedge, cut and wedge...

    Secondly:
    Its a hinge joint. what else is a hinge joint? our tools (scissors, branch loppers, side cutters) a mammals jaw. the greatest pressure is closest to the hinge.
    So when you make a deep hinge you are esentually putting your hand from the front teeth of the rotweiler deep into it's back teeth. leverage of the hinge joint.

    --------------------------------------------------
    Proper uses of wedges:

    You are cutting your wedges...wedges are spitting out when you stack...?

    coming up next...
     
  17. president

    president Addicted to ArboristSite

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    good analogy!,even I get it
     
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  18. Trx250r180

    Trx250r180 Saw polisher

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    What about the axe ?
     
  19. Westboastfaller

    Westboastfaller Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Jake,

    Its time to step your game up and learn all the aspects of wedging with a round head wedge

    Yes its time to get some scratches on those nice K&H wedges.

    As I said previously, they are round so you can wedge parallel with the holding wood by controlling it from the inside outer corner (in a perfect world) you have to consistently it the same spot.
    If a small tree sat back on your saw and you only had 3/8" at the back of the tree to wedge from then a 10 or 12 k&h in good shape will get you out. I've gotten out with 1/4" room with new wedges. Had to adjust the wedge a few times as It keept digging into the chain. A new 12" k&h has got me out when a new 10 would not many times in that position. Just creates the right lift preasure at the right time. So your wedge only has to be in the tree a half inch to get full hight so you shouldwould cut them ifon small diameter.
    If that doesn'kick the tree over then you can drive another one on the inside of it.
    Start practising with them and you will never want to use those other ones again. You can get the k&h round head in an 8" too but kind of defeats the purpose as they are thicker and will be harder to drive especially from one corner.
    The 10" are the ones you want to stack up as they are only about 5° each and the thicker 8" are about 8° I do believe.
    Use a bit of compound between them (10" ) if you have to. Sawdust or gritty dirt.
    you can take another saw cerf out of the stump on one stack so the wedges will slide in further to start. keep in mind the wedges are steeper than the trunk angle so they only grab at the highest spot on the wedge. right at the outside of the tree Still having trouble?

    You can bore in on a slight angle its like taking a few degrees off stack thickness.

    or drive some singles in the sides to reduce the presure . (careful not to pop holding wood)
     
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  20. Westboastfaller

    Westboastfaller Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Red and Yellow. See in the avitar?
     

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