new climbing styles vs. old

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treeclimber165

Member A.K.A Skwerl
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I have somewhat of a dilemma concerning all these newfangled climbing tools. Most of what I have learned in the last 5-10 years about climbing and new gear has been through industry mags and of course the Sherrill catalogue. When conversing with other climbers in places like this, it seems like EVERYONE uses all this new stuff. But in REAL LIFE, I have only met one climber who uses a split-tail system, and I climbed twice as fast as him. I still climb with my old-fashioned Karl Kuemmerling belt, never had a 'biner attached to it and probably wouldn't know what to do with one if I had it. I can tie my tautline hitch without looking- one handed. I trust it with my life without even thinking about it. I have seen pics of some of the setups some guys use, and it is a mass of confusion and multiple ropes with multiple attachments. WAY too much stuff for me to worry about. I'll stick with one rope and one locking clip, thank you.

If I ever could actually work with someone as adept with all this new stuff as you guys seem to be, it might be different. But in my world, it isn't here. Why does this stuff only exist online and in magazines?
 
I started out the same way but know use a distel and micro pulley. I know the old tricks and as many new ones that I find out about.I use a versitile saddle,figure8 steel&alum biners.swivels hpd rollers .I do not use some of it all the time but quiet a bit extra gear goes in the bag. I also use bashlin spikes with super wrap pads for removals. I also use blocks,port a wrap,hobbs, slings slide line crane what ever it takes to get the job done right fast safe and profitable and easy. I still have to go home and mow the lawn at the end of the day.
 
climbing

i also started climbing with a kummerling saddle (in boston ''85). but in the last 7 yrs i have adapted my style to the newer equipment and techniques. when new equipment comes out i usually let a fellow climber try it, then i can see it in action rather than fall for a marketing gimick. i feel that you should incorporate new things slowly so that you can feel comfortable and confident in the tree.

climb safely.
 
I have to agree about not actually seeing this stuff. It almost seems like there is a gap between mags, catalogs and the real world just like there is a huge gap between academia and reality.

I am not saying that these new techniques are not faster or viable, I am just saying that I never see others in the field using it.

Is it because there is a learning curve on it?? i.e. - It will make you faster but for the first few days, you will be slower and more akward?? I think that perception is my largest barrier to entry. I know my split tails and my current system well. My other barrier to entry is that all of these mechanical devices, pulleys, etc. have moving parts. Parts that can fail and leave you stuck on a job. If my tail breaks or gets lost by a groundie, I can just cut another one out of my "parts rope". If these mechanical things get lost or fail, you are waiting on FED-EX or you are climbing feeling akward with the "old school" tautline or blake's.

How do you start?? Just buy it and practice in your free time??
 
If its not broke dont fix it...

Is what I say. If your climbing style works good and quick why upgrade to the newest technology. Its just a waste of money and time learning in my mind. I have been climbing the same way with the same gear since I first started climbing and I see no need to change now.
 
There can seem to be a gap in some cases. From my perspective, I am exposed to all the new stuff, am always speaking with innovators, and have seen some crazy crap that will never make it to market, so I usually get a little culture shock when I hear so few people using a newer technique that I thought was sooo popular.
However, the "if it ain't broke" argument doesn't work for me. I can certainly understand the comfortability factor, and I'm not discounting that, but outside of that, just because you've been doing something for 10 years doesn't mean it can't be improved upon, right? Black and white TV wasn't "broke", but people found a way to improve upon it.
This thread has many good points. Make sure you're comfortable with what you're doing. If you want to try new things, take it slow and low... just to name a couple. Stay safe.
-Sean
 
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As an instructor, I start the students out with the same basic that I did. Double Bowline on a Bight saddle and tautline hitch, nothing else needed in 1967. Then I introduce them to some options: Blake, Prussics, 6 types of saddles, lanyards (2-3), various ropes, etc. From this, I let each develop their own style. Last year my top two climbing students had completely different styles by the end of the class. Both are excellent climbers and perfectly safe. They both probably think I am nuts for using the old tautline and other techniques, but I can tie them in my sleep and they are comfortable. However, on tall trees I am switching to entering the tree using single rope and ascenders, just because it is easier on the old body to let the legs do the lifting.

You will see many changes in your career as a tree worker. I am even going back to the faster handsaws on stuff below 4" from a small chainsaw because it is lighter to carry and faster when you add in getting in position and starting the saw. One point to consider, some employers and customers equate trying new techniques and equipment with keeping up to date on all aspects of tree care. They figure that if you are not inquisitive enough to try to work smarter, you probably aren't keeping up with the advances in tree health and care techniques either. Just something to consider.

Bob Underwood,
 
climbing skills referral

Simple and Safe is often better.

You might contact Tom Dunlop. He teaches classes on advanced and basic climbing techniques and I know he has a segment on simple and safe methods...


Frans
 
Old vs new

When I started climbing manilla was the rope of choice. There have been great advances in the tools we use. Power pruner ,lowering devices, pulleys, the ropes we have now are great. I still use a tautline never had a problem with it. I have made some improvements with my climbing gear though, use a pinnacle saddle, steel core flipline,assorted slings, Technology is great if you can use it to save you time .awear and tear on your body.
 
New Technology

I think that new technology in the equipment we use is crucial for the advancements that have occoured over the years but when I say "why change now" I am referring more to climbing styles and techniques. I am all about better and safer equipment that I currently use but I dont feel a need to use new climbing gadgets that will take time to learn when I can get into trees efficiently as it is. I may end up getting into a tree faster with the new toys but its not worth all of the time I would have to take it slow and low to learn it because my productivity would suffer during that amount of time and I hate being unproductive....its not good for business.:cool:
 
Do you guys still use dial up phones too? How about drum chippers?
No disrespect intended... after all it is literally your LIFE on the line. I respect (almost) any man willing to do that to put food on the table.
I was resistant at first too. The tree, the rope, the saddle and me. That was a safe equation. I reasoned any extra equipment was adding extra potential for failure and therefore injury. That was before I got educated. And before I tried the Big Shot.
The Big Shot opened my mind to a vast horizon of possibilities. The added productivity, safety, and versatility of that one tool go beyond words. Looking back at my pre-big shoot career seems like the Stone Age to me.
So I put this question out to all you guys using old school technique.... Have you ever seen a world class climber move through a tree? My guess is you haven't. You can't get "it" from a book, magazine, or catalogue. You have to see it in action.
I once had the pleasure of watching Mark Chisholm use double line ascenders to foot lock up about 50'. He was 50' up before anybody else would have had the first outrigger pad on the ground, and he wasn't even trying.
Did you see the article on this same subject in July's TCI magazine? Davey did a before and after productivity study of new and old school technique on three of their best climbers. Productivity initially dropped 10% as they were going through the learning curve... then increase by a solid (and IMO huge) 30%. 30% more productivity and that was using Blake's, not French prussic or other advanced hitches.
So learning this new way is like learning to climb all over again. Lot's of fooling and fumbling around and feeling awkward etc. You have to be willing to go through that. There is gold on the other side.
God Bless All,
Daniel
 
Daniel,
You were absolutely right about the BigShot! Since buying mine I've started seeing all kinds of different options for rigging AND climbing. Getting used to using the split-tail and distal hitch attached with 2 biners instead of one steel locking clip. Setting ropes is a breeze now and all kinds of things are possible that I never considered before.
Thanks! :)
 
Right on, Daniel.

In the world of climbers, there is a trickle down effect of people using new equipment. First, pioneers (ITCC climbers, judges, organizers, etc.) purchase or are given "toys" that they experiment with and either recommend or discourage it to the next person. These other people (online forum readers, TCI Mag. and Sherrill catalog readers) pick up on what works and pass it on to their coworkers.

At this point, the products that work have been flame-tested and proven in competitions and in the marketplace. A beginner climber shouldn't start out on a prototype tool, naturally. At the same time, we should be listening to people and find what works best and integrate it gradually into our preferred climbing system.

Nickrosis
 
Initially I resisted the "new" techniques. I didn't think they were bad, just reasoned that increased complexity meant increased chances for failure.-Besides I only climb a few times a month. I'm glad that curiosity got the better of me. Now I'm back to climbing trees that I could manage to do without climbing. Security isn't compromised it is enhanced and climbing is fun again.
 
In my experience a lot of climbers are first exposed to progressive climbing techniques by the use of a split tail. then the move to an advanced firction hitch. If these two tools make sense with the climber thier progression to other modern climbing tools and techniques is quick. Being open to new climbing skills is just as important as being open to new tree care skills like Bob U. said.

Think for a second. Here we are, using one of the most advanced forms of mass communication and we're talking about climbing skills that were eclipsed probably ten years ago. Now hold on! I'm not saying that there isn't value in knowing those skills and that some climbers can be just as productive. The point is, climbing skills are advancing just like other technology. Take one little piece and incorporate that into your kit. Then add another. Pretty soon you'll be having more fun and working easier. This isn't something that I just think, this is one thing thatI'm absolutely as sure of as the sun coming up tomorrow morning. Using progressive climbing skills will add many healthy years to your career.

Doesn't everyone expect their dentist, accountant, doctor, car mechanic, veteranarian, grocery store, etc. to keep up with the arc of technology in their profession? Shouldn't arbos do the same?

Like I told Craig in another thread, my 48 year old body is feeling much healthier than my early 30's yerar old body. Why? A lot is because of new climbing tools and techniques. You owe it to yourself and your family to keep current.

If you don't see anyone else using progressive climbing techniques, search them out. Have you been to your chapter Tree Climbing Championships? How about attending any or all of the chapter training sessions? That's where you have the best chance of meeting up with modern climbers. Treat yourself to a vacation and attend the TCI Expo in Milwaukee. There'll be a lot of good training sessions there.

I'll have to say that I don't know anyone, besides some of the people on this forum, that still climb without at least a split tail. Biners to replace those heavy rope snaps are the next step. Even if you don't use all of the other advantages you don't keep chopping your rope into a shorter and shorter line. That was what attracted me to using a split tail umpteen, yse I think it's "teen" years, ago.

Tom
 
I use a snap on the working end of my climbing line, biner on the hitch side.

Yes there is a learning curve, and when you go to the tress hitches the cord length can be a critical factor. I spliced my own cord and am now wortking in full gear on a 3:1 distal (can't remember which is which, mine is like a taughtline) it moves perfect and does not lock up on me. just a little tug on the downrope picks up the slack.


IMO all these addons are tweeks, they don't have any one real huge advantage, but the total advantage is not linear.

After getting acender FL down I cannot see doing it any other way.

Now that I can make a tress cord (vs. splitail) for less the $2 of rope while watching the football game, I will not go back to the ST. If I drop it or forget it, I stll hav an extra biner to run an anchor-tail-Blake's. Heck, I'll do that on small trees that I have the rope more for a decender then a climbing aide.

Brian, maybe when you get a new saddle it will work better for you. I started in a KK saddle, loved my Buck Master when I first got into it.
 
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