New to site , original owner CS650EVL , have some questions ...

[pilotwingz]

hi all , purchased back in 85 , used it for personal use several times a year to cut logs for splitting firewood , maybe 8 years or so ... later didn't cut up as much firewood because less access to the logs , then later yet didn't cut any after moving (no fire box) ... other than that I've only used it occassionally helping friends clear a tree now and then ... so how much time on saw ?? , I don't know but it still cleans up good and I think plenty work left in it ...

I put it back in use about 4-5 years ago clearing on the new place we moved to ... was hard time staring but ran great after started , but still hard starting after shut off and restart , pita ... decided it deserved a professional look see and tlc from the local authorized Echo service center because it was becoming a senior citizen now like me ... what a rip-off ...

need to call it into service again now , more clearing on property ... this time it was REALLY hard getting it started , but after 20 - 30 minutes of trying (yes , fresh fuel/oil mix) it fired right up and ran perfect ... ran it for maybe 20 minutes then turned it off ... tried to start it again but same old **** , so I quit ... finishing going over everything I can think of on the saw now ... I think it's problem is in the H.T wire (I can make a new one) , or the on-off switch ...

what do you guys think ??

 

[bonkelaar]

Hello,
I own a 660 EVL witch is the same saw with different chaincover. I also had this problem in the past. On my saw i found out that the tuning of the carburator was not right. For better starting the L screw is mainly responsible. I tried to tune the mixtures on L and later also on H and the saw is behaving well since that time. Also good starting after a long time without use.
I use Aspen as fuel. Using gas, your fuel might be too old after some time of no use. Filling with fresh fuel helps.

From an old mechanic i learned a trick with a pencil lead. You unscrew the spark plug and go with the lead over the middle electrode and the mass. Cover the whole in the grafite of the lead. After this 'treatment' the spark is a lot bigger over a short period. This helps to start up a hard starting engine.
I do not need this on my Echo yet but i experienced that not so many people are familiar with this trick.

Greetings from Holland.
Jos.

 

[HarleyT]

Sounds like it needs the fuel system gone through, with a new kit and lines...
To start...

 

[pilotwingz]

Hello,
I own a 660 EVL witch is the same saw with different chaincover. I also had this problem in the past. On my saw i found out that the tuning of the carburator was not right. For better starting the L screw is mainly responsible. I tried to tune the mixtures on L and later also on H and the saw is behaving well since that time. Also good starting after a long time without use.
I use Aspen as fuel. Using gas, your fuel might be too old after some time of no use. Filling with fresh fuel helps.

From an old mechanic i learned a trick with a pencil lead. You unscrew the spark plug and go with the lead over the middle electrode and the mass. Cover the whole in the grafite of the lead. After this 'treatment' the spark is a lot bigger over a short period. This helps to start up a hard starting engine.
I do not need this on my Echo yet but i experienced that not so many people are familiar with this trick.

Greetings from Holland.
Jos.

thanks for the greeting and pencil lead tip (makes some sense to me) ... I took a quick look at the 660EVL , looks pretty similar ...

 

[pilotwingz]

Sounds like it needs the fuel system gone through, with a new kit and lines...
To start...

at first I thought it might of been a timing problem , maybe sheared the woodruff key or the (extinct) Ignition Coil and/or the T.C. module were done for , but then it started , idled fine so I went to work on that fallen tree , got it sectioned up and took a 5 minute break ... then NO Start again , so I gave up trying for then ... when I first tried to get it started up (original post) , it felt like the pull chord would just stop dead a short ways out before a good pull , it also kicked back on me several times , jerked that grip right out of my hand a number of times (that hurt !!) ... I think it may have been loading up , and intermittently would fire before I got a full pull on it causing that nasty kickback (??) ... since then I've given the saw a good cleaning and inspection , serviced the clutch drum assembly (took sprocket drum off and cleaned drum , clutch , and needle bearing (repacked) ... right now I have the Ignition Coil/T.C. module off and removed H.T. wire from Coil ... took the plug boot off the H.T. wire , doesn't look like very good connections happening at either end of the spark plug wire itself , think I should build a new one and see if it starts before trying anything else (??) ...

 

[pilotwingz]

I don't know what size H.T. wire to get or if it's a specific type , can't find any spec. on it (??) , there's a Sthil service shop (homeowner's garage) a few miles from here ... don't want to pay $8.50 s/h for a 5-1/2" piece from eReplacement parts (they have the replacement H.T. wire for $1.89) ... the spark plug coil spring that goes into the plug boot looks good (reuse ??) , the boots on each end look good ... probably should get a new chaffing tube when I find the H.T. wire ... I think I can build a new one , watched a few Youtube vids. for the spring coil type plug connection , they say strip about 1/4" insulation off and spread the exposed strand core wire to left and right to make contact with the spring coil before poking it's pin into the wire (the wire I took off and disassembled isn't spread like that) ... also I guess you just sort of hand screw the other end into the Ignition Coil (there's a pin in there that looks like it's suppose to go up (screw) into the H.T. wire to make contact with the core wire (??) ...

also , what if after I build a new H.T. wire and it doesn't get reliable spark or start ... the off-on switch is the only other thing I can think of that would interfere with spark ... I took the push top off the switch and looked inside , it looks clean inside and has a good on-off locking feel ... that little screw and push button were a pain to get back onto the switch body correctly but I got it done right ... what's the chance the on-off switch could be bad (extinct part) ??

 

[HarleyT]

Sounds like a carb flooding issue, go through the carb and fuel system first.

 

[wcorey]

Sounds like you have the ht wire replacement under control.

Have you retuned the carb as mentioned in the second post?

Might also be an impulse leak where the signal is getting weak and has a harder time pumping fuel up to the carb at cranking speeds.

Then that gets compounded by the probable need for a carb refresh where the pumping diaphragm may be getting stiff and the valve flaps aren’t seating well.
Fuel in the carb then more easily leaks back down to the tank when not running and further aggravates the ability to pump back up from the tank efficiently.

Assuming it still runs good after starting, an alternative to all that is to squirt some fuel on the air cleaner to start it...

Then if that makes it worse the suggestion that it’s flooding may be correct...

 

[pilotwingz]

Sounds like a carb flooding issue, go through the carb and fuel system first.

well , it looks like there is after market carb rebuild kits for it on eBay and I'm not opposed to doing that , but I need to know I'm getting good consistent spark at the plug first , I really don't think I am ... fuel is fresh , fuel line isn't collapsed , fuel pickup filter looks good ... I've studied the carb diagram , it's a HDB11A , I think I could rebuild it "if I had to" ... in either case I want to build a new H.T. wire for it ... I'm thinking the Ignition Coil and T.C. module must "still be good" because it did start up "once" and run just fine , before it wouldn't start again next time ... do you agree the Ignition Coil/T.C. module are still good ??

ps., ... what is the Impulse pipe ?? ... I see it on the schematic , #26 , but haven't seen it on the saw itself yet , probably because I haven't opened it all the way up "yet" (??) ...

 

[Colt Marlington]

What's the plug look like?

Should be wet if it's getting fuel and no spark.

 

[HarleyT]

flooding... stiff diaphrams or leaky needle... go through the carb first....

when I first tried to get it started up (original post) , it felt like the pull chord would just stop dead a short ways out before a good pull , it also kicked back on me several times , jerked that grip right out of my hand a number of times (that hurt !!) ...

 

[Colt Marlington]

Oh yeah, right. Flooding....

 

[pilotwingz]

Sounds like you have the ht wire replacement under control.

Have you retuned the carb as mentioned in the second post?

Might also be an impulse leak where the signal is getting weak and has a harder time pumping fuel up to the carb at cranking speeds.

Then that gets compounded by the probable need for a carb refresh where the pumping diaphragm may be getting stiff and the valve flaps aren’t seating well.
Fuel in the carb then more easily leaks back down to the tank when not running and further aggravates the ability to pump back up from the tank efficiently.

Assuming it still runs good after starting, an alternative to all that is to squirt some fuel on the air cleaner to start it...

Then if that makes it worse the suggestion that it’s flooding may be correct...

don't understand what an "impulse leak" is ... no haven't adjusted or fooled with the H and L jet screws on the carb yet , the idle was good and the rev-up to cut rpm was good when it started that once and I cut with it ... I think I understand about the "diaphragm-fuel pump and the diaphragm-metering" parts on the carb assembly , they might be getting old/stiff ?? ... the inside of the cylinder gets plenty wet with fuel when trying to start it , but I don't think it sparks well during pull start ... the plug looked beautiful after it started and ran , nice dry tan color ... then wet after trying/failing to start it again (no spark ??)

 

[pilotwingz]

hi all , purchased back in 85 , used it for personal use several times a year to cut logs for splitting firewood , maybe 8 years or so ... later didn't cut up as much firewood because less access to the logs , then later yet didn't cut any after moving (no fire box) ... other than that I've only used it occassionally helping friends clear a tree now and then ... so how much time on saw ?? , I don't know but it still cleans up good and I think plenty work left in it ...

I put it back in use about 4-5 years ago clearing on the new place we moved to ... was hard time staring but ran great after started , but still hard starting after shut off and restart , pita ... decided it deserved a professional look see and tlc from the local authorized Echo service center because it was becoming a senior citizen now like me ... what a rip-off ...

need to call it into service again now , more clearing on property ... this time it was REALLY hard getting it started , but after 20 - 30 minutes of trying (yes , fresh fuel/oil mix) it fired right up and ran perfect ... ran it for maybe 20 minutes then turned it off ... tried to start it again but same old **** , so I quit ... finishing going over everything I can think of on the saw now ... I think it's problem is in the H.T wire (I can make a new one) , or the on-off switch ...

what do you guys think ??

What's the plug look like?

Should be wet if it's getting fuel and no spark.

it's a pretty new plug not much use on ... wet when not starting ... was nice dry tan color after it started and ran good that once ... then wet again after trying/failing to restart ... I'll check back in tomorrow , getting tired now ... thanks all so far ...

 

[wcorey]

So it's obviously flooding then...
Could be due to the ignition issues you're already addressing but since it runs well after it's started...

More likely a carb issue, maybe be the needle not seating.

 

[Mauser]

Here's the thing - you have an old saw that has done a lot of sitting. There are rubber parts both inside the carb and various tubes/fuel lines. 2,000% chance that those rubber parts are HARD, and probably some cracks too. In addition, there is probably some varnish and other gunk from old gas evaporating over the years; if nothing else, this will have caused some problems with the pick-up fuel filter and screens in the carb.

I would strongly suggest that to do ANYTHING at all on that saw before completely going through the fuel system and replacing all rubber hoses is to complete and total waste of time and money. If there is something on the saw that is rubber, it needs to be pliable and not have cracks. I am actually amazed that you were able to run it as much as you say without doing this service.

 

[rmh3481]

I would replace the wire and the plug, all the fuel lines, air filter and anything else I could get for it. I might have a clutch drum with a bearing for it and a pair of spikes if you want me to look. Carb was an HDB Walbro. Spark plug is NON resister NGK BPM7Y (notice no R in the name) with a gap .025 inch. There are some differences in the ignitions. The 650evl and 660evl are both cdi. The older of the two has a small rectifyer that runs across the laminations (plates) of the coil/cdi unit. If you take the ignition module off for cleaning use a business card to set the air gap when putting it back on and watch you dont lose that little add on. Make sure everything is grounded well. Hard starting is probably coming from the carb diaphragms. Check the tank vent to see if its closed off. Alcohol gas hardens the diaphragms within a couple years now. Its hard to not run some alcohol laced gas thru your engines today. Would make a great project for you and a family member. Clean it up, replace the rubber bits and get it running better than ever!

 

[rmh3481]

Impulse is the alternating suction and pressure cycles that come from the sealed crankcase of a two stroke engine. Since these forces come from beneath the piston crown, there is not as much heat associated with it, and it is filtered being in the case. Many different manufacturers pipe this 'free energy' off and use it to run the tiny fuel pump that is located inside a diaphragm carb. I dont remember right off the top of my head whether the 650/660evls used impulse through the intake block or via a hose. I believe it was a hose. If there are 2 hoses running to the carb then you will know one is fuel and the other is impulse. So the idea is, should there be a hole or crack in that hose, then the engine wont run correctly. Avoid Tygon to replace a bad impulse hose because the hose itself will absorb the slight pressure and suction events because its so soft. Instead use a regular rubber or nitrile hose that is a little more substantial. All the Echo dealers have the rubber line. just take a piece of the old one with you for the size.

 

[pilotwingz]

Impulse is the alternating suction and pressure cycles that come from the sealed crankcase of a two stroke engine. Since these forces come from beneath the piston crown, there is not as much heat associated with it, and it is filtered being in the case. Many different manufacturers pipe this 'free energy' off and use it to run the tiny fuel pump that is located inside a diaphragm carb. I dont remember right off the top of my head whether the 650/660evls used impulse through the intake block or via a hose. I believe it was a hose. If there are 2 hoses running to the carb then you will know one is fuel and the other is impulse. So the idea is, should there be a hole or crack in that hose, then the engine wont run correctly. Avoid Tygon to replace a bad impulse hose because the hose itself will absorb the slight pressure and suction events because its so soft. Instead use a regular rubber or nitrile hose that is a little more substantial. All the Echo dealers have the rubber line. just take a piece of the old one with you for the size.

thanks , think I understand what the Impulse tube does now ... yes , there is 2nd hose attached to the carb and I can see it connects to a metal tube that sticks up out the crankcase , must be #26 on the schematic diagram) ... I've checked the Fuel hose , the Impulse hose and the Oiler hose , they "seem" pretty good to me . no cracks or leaks , are still flexible , don't seem hardened (??) ...

after I rebuild the Ignition wire and if I'm getting good spark , and determine if the on-off switch is working OK , then I'll go ahead and get a carb rebuild kit and rebuild it (any tips on how and "what NOT to do , lol) ?? ... yes , it could use a new clutch/sprocket drum , talked to a lady at eReplacement parts and she told me her info shows they can still get the whole "clutch assembly" ($35.) new on special order (so I'll probably end up doing that) ... thanks

 

[pilotwingz]

t

I would replace the wire and the plug, all the fuel lines, air filter and anything else I could get for it. I might have a clutch drum with a bearing for it and a pair of spikes if you want me to look. Carb was an HDB Walbro. Spark plug is NON resister NGK BPM7Y (notice no R in the name) with a gap .025 inch. There are some differences in the ignitions. The 650evl and 660evl are both cdi. The older of the two has a small rectifyer that runs across the laminations (plates) of the coil/cdi unit. If you take the ignition module off for cleaning use a business card to set the air gap when putting it back on and watch you dont lose that little add on. Make sure everything is grounded well. Hard starting is probably coming from the carb diaphragms. Check the tank vent to see if its closed off. Alcohol gas hardens the diaphragms within a couple years now. Its hard to not run some alcohol laced gas thru your engines today. Would make a great project for you and a family member. Clean it up, replace the rubber bits and get it running better than ever!

thanks for the parts offer but I've serviced the clutch assembly , it seems good for now ... spikes are still good ... yes , my saw has that small add-on part to the Ignition coil , the schematic calls it the T.C. Ignition module , part # 150 601-1433 3 (#4 on the schematic) , btw it is an extinct part also ...