Oak Wilt and tree trimming

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unclecrash

ArboristSite Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
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Location
Whitelake Mi.
High guys Im in Michigan and had a company come around that is pruning for the electric company.They tried to tell me they had to cut my Oak's!! i told them it's not going to happen that Im a ware of Oak Wilt and how fast it can take a tree Out. There was a company that destroyed a subdivision because they didn't give a squat about the Oak's and went through cutting them and they killed a bunch. I think they got sued for it. But anyway the guy went on to say that the Oak wilt order was lifted, I replied that that's funny you are still not cutting them and my understanding was you cannot cut on any oak's til after a hard freeze or you can cut them early before spring. I have asked a few year's ago several companies and they all told me the same thing do not let them cut until the first freeze. So he must of thought I was kidding with him and asked again so you don't want me to trim them. I told him know they are not touching the line's and that I trim them my self after the freeze. He said Ok that someone from there company or the electric company will be getting a hold of us. Our big Oak is over 300 years old and one of the nicest around. It was having trouble like it was going through a faze where it appeared to be dying but the last to years I pruned a lot of the suckers around the bottom to lift it and fertilized the front lawn and it seems to be doing way better this year. It is getting a lot of new growth coming out of the huge limb's in the center of the tree. He also told me that they need tobe 10 feet from the line's. If that the case the oaks on the side would all have to be cut down as the trunks are within 10feet.
 
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I came to your post because i am curious, but cant figure out if your making a statement, ranting, asking a question, or what. No problem either way, I am now just more curious than when I started reading.

At the risk of being rude (but not intentionally) whats your point?
 
That's a tough one with the oaks and the power lines. Usually it is younger trees planted under the lines. Then for a decade after a big storm the utility gets to excercise their easement rights because folks did not like being w/o power for a week. Ameren's last campaign was "Power On". It must be over though, two municipalities around here, Florissant and Hazelwood just planted dozens of locusts under the lines. Idiots.

Regardless, thats a tough spot. On one hand I can see utilities trying to recollect fees in the future if your trees bring down lines, especially if you fought them. On the other hand, boy your trees are old. Don't believe me? The railroad I used to work for sued ppl who got stuck on the tracks sometimes even their estates after a fatal accident.

Think the tree trimmer was just trying to get you to let him cut the trres with horror stories of sudden oak death? Do the utilities by you do it for free? I have had my Shingle oak trimmed twice at no cost to me. I go talk with the guys nicely so the do a decent job. My tree is forty feet from the wires though.

Either way, good luck.
 
Most publications will say don't prune April through July... I like to wait until at least September. You certainly don't need to wait until first freeze. If you can delay them a couple more weeks, I'd say don't worry about it after that.

300 years old: how did you come up with that number?
 
Most publications will say don't prune April through July... I like to wait until at least September. You certainly don't need to wait until first freeze. If you can delay them a couple more weeks, I'd say don't worry about it after that.

300 years old: how did you come up with that number?

just going by what the few arborist have told me it's huge. I will post a pic and maybe you can decide how old it is. here is a pic from a while back. http://www.arboristsite.com/attachments/homeowner-helper-forum/185119d1306270702-oak-tree-jpg She was not doing good in a bad decline here, but I have fertilizeed her in the last couple years and has a lot of new growth on it huge limb's. Iwill post a pic here in a while of how she looks this year.
 
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I'm betting against 300 years old:

300 years ago, that tree would have been in a forest and would have grown tall and straight without lower limbs. The form of that tree says it was open grown, not forest grown...that puts it after settlement.

Size is an impossible predictor of age. Just a quick example: I cut down a 34" diameter ash that was about 55 years old - much shorter than your tree. Not long after that, I visited a woods that was being logged. The owner was in his late 60s - his grandfather bought the woods and never cut any timber and has passed it through the family. I counted rings on a 24" ash in that woods (which has VERY good soil) and quit counting at 50 years old at about 3-4" in. The rings were consistently sized to the middle of the tree. That puts the tree at 150-200 years old...and it went up 50+ feet before the first limbs - so it looked like that "woods grown" tree I was referring to. So to summarize: 34" at 55 years. 24" at 175 years. Both ash. The smaller tree was growing in better soil...the bigger tree grew in an open back yard so it had all the sunlight it wanted.

Not to take anything away from your tree...it is a big beautiful tree, but I doubt the age. Hopefully you'll never cut it down and know for sure! You could count the rings on a large limb if they remove one of those...that won't give you the age of the tree, but it will give you the age of that limb.
 
Darn I wish I would have known that I could read a branch I cut some big one's off a few years back that are healed over, they are right at where it fans out at the top of her huge trunk. I wonder if I can still see the rings. I Know it has been here for a long time as there is a belt of Oak's that come out of the swamp behind my house starting with mine and they go for a long way down between the houses. It seems to be a natural funnel area that the deer feed through in the we hour's of night time. Well I dodged a bullet again. They didn't push the issue of cutting on her. But they did ask me to fill out a paper saying I refused to let them cut. That must be so they can sue if the tree ever take's out the line's,butthe way I see it I printed my Dad's name and Phone # I think a good attorney could say they did not go through the right legal channel's by not going to the home owner him self to sign and date it. For all they know I could just been some guy a friend or something who just wrote a joe blow and phony #. But not going to get into a debate on that one just glad they didn't make the tree look like crap by messing up her shape. I will get a picture of her she is looking alot fuller than in the picture in the link. I think she was putting her energy into all the new growth in the middle of the tree.She is getting fruit for the first time since I lived here in 35 + years. She has had a few random acorns on her before but this year with the humidity and all the rain I looked up and seen more acorn than ever. I bet the deer used to lay under her and gourge in the day, before the sub was established. I know of another big one about her size that they just punched roads through and was just driving around and saw 9 deer just grazing and laying under it feeding. Well I don't know the age for sure but it really does not matter as she is a beautiful old oak and that is what sold my mother and Father on the land and house. I know there are a few other real big one's a round this area which they recognized as being the biggest in the area and historic. Thank's Dave
 
Both you and the utility have rights here that need to be respected. As ATH states, it is most commonly agreed upon that we are past the critical stage for insect vectoring of Oak Wilt. The utility likely has a written easement, which gives them right to trim (or remove) the tree, whenever they see fit. If they can, they might delay the trimming to suit your desires; or they might not. Your best bet is to be courteous and polite, ask them to take as little as possible, and to sanitize their equipment before starting.

I probably deal with this exact issue a half dozen times a year...If I can, I will make concessions to make the homeowner happy. They are customers, after all. I have never gave up on a tree that needed to be trimmed, and we've trimmed them all. Sometimes we have to get the police involved.

Please remember that the utility has the right, and the responsibility, to keep the power lines clear of vegetation.

PS, you're not helping your cause by giving phony information and being a general A-hole.
 
... it is most commonly agreed upon that we are past the critical stage for insect vectoring of Oak Wilt.

Agreed upon by who exactly, the utilities trying to get their job done?

When I was a kid, the old school tree guys would say, "You can trim Oaks any month with an "R" in it." Then the utility guy would trim those months, and sometimes include Mary and Aurgust, also some weeks in June and July if needed, but pretty much any month there was an Oak with no homeowner standing watch.

We know insects are still a buzz in August, so those folks who you say agree it's okay to trim now, must also be confident the fungal spores are dead and gone. I wonder about this years cool, wet weather. If Michigan os anything like Wisconsin, they are having some unusual weather yhis year, real good for fungi and their spore.

As for the tree, that thing looks bad, drought response from last year?
 
Ok, after carefully examining the one picture you have posted I have drawn the following conclusions. Judging from the location of the tree, the branch structure, and overall appearance of the tree. I would say it was planted at about the same time the house was built, and judging from the architecture and design of the house I would put its date of construction in the late 60's to early 70's. So this places the age of the tree in the 50-60 year old range, rather than the 300 year old range. Looking at the location of the tree and the overall branch structure, it is obvious the utility company has never considered this tree a threat to their lines before, or we would see signs of prior pruning jobs, which I do not. Even now as it stands, I would be surprised if any line clearance co. would feel a need to touch that tree, given its location. If any of my observations are in error, please feel free to correct me. Jeff
 
Agreed upon by who exactly, the utilities trying to get their job done?

When I was a kid, the old school tree guys would say, "You can trim Oaks any month with an "R" in it." Then the utility guy would trim those months, and sometimes include Mary and Aurgust, also some weeks in June and July if needed, but pretty much any month there was an Oak with no homeowner standing watch.

We know insects are still a buzz in August, so those folks who you say agree it's okay to trim now, must also be confident the fungal spores are dead and gone. I wonder about this years cool, wet weather. If Michigan os anything like Wisconsin, they are having some unusual weather yhis year, real good for fungi and their spore.

As for the tree, that thing looks bad, drought response from last year?


At the utility, we trim Oaks all year long. We trim about 1 million trees per year and we cannot skip all of the oaks for 1/2 of the year. If there is a special concern or historical tree in an area known to have Oak Wilt, we may make a special concession.

For my private business, I try to avoid pruning live wood from oaks april-july.

As far as who it is accepted by, I would say, the entomologists who study the life cycle of the insects, departments of conservation of various states, speakers at ISA and local forestry council conferences.

If I was just going to make something up, it would be a little better than that.
 
At the utility, we trim Oaks all year long. We trim about 1 million trees per year and we cannot skip all of the oaks for 1/2 of the year. If there is a special concern or historical tree in an area known to have Oak Wilt, we may make a special concession.

Like I said...

For my private business, I try to avoid pruning live wood from oaks april-july.

For our customers, we do the line clearance preemtively so the utility guys don't have to come do ithe trimming at the wrong time of year.


As far as who it is accepted by, I would say, the entomologists who study the life cycle of the insects, departments of conservation of various states, speakers at ISA and local forestry council conferences.

I'd be interested in seeing credible information supporting that. The insects are around, so it's a matter of figuring out when the pressure pads are producing viable spores.

If I was just going to make something up, it would be a little better than that.
:msp_wink:
 
Ok, after carefully examining the one picture you have posted I have drawn the following conclusions. Judging from the location of the tree, the branch structure, and overall appearance of the tree. I would say it was planted at about the same time the house was built, and judging from the architecture and design of the house I would put its date of construction in the late 60's to early 70's. So this places the age of the tree in the 50-60 year old range, rather than the 300 year old range. Looking at the location of the tree and the overall branch structure, it is obvious the utility company has never considered this tree a threat to their lines before, or we would see signs of prior pruning jobs, which I do not. Even now as it stands, I would be surprised if any line clearance co. would feel a need to touch that tree, given its location. If any of my observations are in error, please feel free to correct me. Jeff

I'd guess about double that, maybe 80 to 120 years old. Do trees grow that fast down in Texas, because up here they just don't get that big in 50 years up here, not Oaks anyway.
 
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I'd be interested in seeing credible information supporting that. The insects are around, so it's a matter of figuring out when the pressure pads are producing viable spores.
....

Google is not that hard to use, but here are some links from States in the region that appear on the first page of a search:

Oak Wilt Guide - Wisconsin DNR
Oak Wilt-What Can I do: Minnesota DNR
http://www.plantpath.iastate.edu/files/SUL15.pdf
http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/3000/pdf/HYG_3306_09.pdf
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/IC4166-C_256344_7.pdf

Are those "credible sources"?
 
I'd guess about double that, maybe 80 to 120 years old. Do trees grow that fast down in Texas, because up here they just don't get that big in 50 years up here, not Oaks anyway.

Look at the house and the overall location. That house has either a garden level or walk out basement, so with a six to eight foot overdig they are within 5-6 feet of the stump. The house is a classic 60's style tract home. The tree is around 50-60' tall, with a growth pattern that suggests it never had any competition from other trees. So based on location and growth pattern, I sure can't say it predates the house. And that is not a hundred year old house. Jeff
 
Seems awfully naive to believe wilt is vectored ONLY by one certain beetle family, Nitidulidae @ one small window of seasonal opportunity. Logic dictates that window is much larger and the possible vector sp. much broader. Anytime insects smack into your windshield susceptible trees are in danger.
 
I'll take "Quantified with data gathered in repeatable experiments during university & USFS research and published in peer reviewed journal" over "Seems like" any day.

Is there any research to indicate anything contrary to what every State's Extension and DNR (in addition to USFS) publishes?

Some things really are that straight forward.

Just for a cushion, like I said earlier in this thread, I like to wait until September...but if I was trying to delay pruning on my tree, and the power company pushed me on it, I'd have to admit that July 1 (or at the latest July 15) is the real "safe day" because that is what the research has found. Anything else, is winging it. If I think I can make up my own facts, I shouldn't be surprised if they want to make up their own as well. Then the question is no longer science by emotion or style.
 
The problem is the research quoted sounds fairly limited. The 2006 to 2009 study was based on 12 logging sites, which I assume means only one or two sites were late season sites. I guess I need to read the study being quoted in those DNR recommendations.

I'd rather see a study where insects are gathered and examined for the presence of spores. Then the same study repeated on different dates, and different years.

We have high Oak Wilt pressure here in Wisconsin and you won't see me doing maitainance prunning on my trees July 16.
 
Look at the house and the overall location. That house has either a garden level or walk out basement, so with a six to eight foot overdig they are within 5-6 feet of the stump. The house is a classic 60's style tract home. The tree is around 50-60' tall, with a growth pattern that suggests it never had any competition from other trees. So based on location and growth pattern, I sure can't say it predates the house. And that is not a hundred year old house. Jeff

I see what you mean about the house and its proximity to the tree. Open grown trees don't get too tall, but did you notice the diameter of the tree? Do Oaks grow that fast in Texas? Based on Oaks I've cut, I've not seen trees that size (30"DBH?) less than 80 or 100 years old.

It's possible the tree was there when they built the house and they used extrodinary care to preserve it during construction because it was located so perfectly to frame and shade the house. Perhaps it was a healthy small to medium sized 30 or 40 year old tree at the time. I've seen 4 to 6 inch diameter trees 30 or 40 years old.
 
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