Opinions wanted: is a higher HP saw more dangerous than a lower?

[johnsayen]

Hello

the reason I ask this question is sometimes life is counter intuitive, for example, a sharper kitchen knife is significantly safer than a dull knife.

Does the chance for kickback, push back, general safety hazards increase with a larger, heavier saw?

All things such as chain, bar, maintenance, etc being equal, is a 462 more dangerous than a 261?

Does your answer change based on the level of experience of the operator?

 

[CausticUC]

The last question is the correct answer

 

[RED-85-Z51]

I sharp chain on a bar properly suited to the saw and task, in the hands of a safe experienced operator, is best.

You can cut your leg off with a 25cc 12" top handle saw pruning branches

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk

 

[catbuster]

More power does increase the speed/force from kickback/weight of components involved, so yes. Both are dangerous tools with the same principle set of dangers, they are just amplified with a more powerful saw.

The operator makes a huge difference in the end result. I’d put more trust in Kimi Raikkonen in an F1 car more than I ever did my late grandmother in her four-cylinder Ranger. For what it’s worth, I’ve come much closer to serious injury with an MS180 set up with a 14” bar than I ever have with my 395 running a 42” bar.

 

[Ryan'smilling]

Depends greatly on several variables. Kinda like the car example above. You put a high hp car on skinny tires, and there goes your traction. Is that the fault of the HP, or was the combined setup unsafe?

A bigger, higher hp saw might be set up with a long bar, like catbuster mentioned. In that case, it's like a heavy handgun or rifle in that the weight absorbs some of the energy of the recoil or the kickback. But you could also put a 16" bar on a 70cc saw and come up with a combination that's more likely to have a dangerous kickback. Chain is the same deal. You could be running a 24"+ bar with a reduced kickback chain, or a 20" bar with skip tooth regular chain. The HP of the saw isn't the main factor in which setup will kick more in that example.

Weight and fatigue are also factors at play, which tend to work against the safety of a bigger saw, but then again, some operators may not take a small saw seriously enough because of its appearance.

 

[farmguywithasaw]

There is essentially 2 “types” of kickback. One is when the tip of the bar catches on a piece of wood and the force redirects the bar to go flying at your head in an arc. This is what the chain brake was designed to help with. The other is if the wood pinched the chain on top of your bar forces the saw out and towards you. Bucking pants or chaps is a must. The latter kickback is much more prevalent in a high hp saw. Smaller saws just stall the clutch. However a higher hp saw can run a longer bar so if bucking firewood for example you can cut from a standing position. Not hunched over which in my opinion is better for your back and is also safer for the first mentioned kickback. As stated proper safety practice and technic and ppe is the best defence

 

[toadman]

Personally I worry less about getting killed running my saw than driving around in my pickup...
But IMO, they are both dangerous.
With the larger more powerful saw you typically get more of everything... more power, faster cuts, bigger wood=more crushing force and force in general.
But that size wood is safer with a larger saw IMO. I have cut 25" logs with a top handle trim saw, but I feel far safer with 70cc of power and the bar reach to get my body away & watch the forces with a little more reaction distance.
I will not give a 90cc saw to a newbie, theres just too much to go wrong with that much weight, power & inexperience.
Mostly inexperience.
but neither would I send them unassisted to cut a blowdown requiring 90cc of saw & bar with a 45cc saw.
That's not any better.
It is more a technique thing than a saw issue when it comes to safety.
If you're aware of what can happen & know how to react to avoid or correct these potential issues, then I feel that choosing the right saw for the wood is the safest option regardless of the saws size.
Same reason a loaded f550 & trailer makes for a very poor first car experience from a safety perspective.
Also why I don't tow a 20k goose neck with my tacoma when the f550 is safer.
I wouldn't let my grandma drive the loaded f550, but the tacoma is just fine for her uses should it be needed.

 

[Derf]

More power = heavier saw = tires you out faster
When you’re tired, you’re more likely to make a mistake and hurt yourself. But you could be in the same boat if you work all day and tire out with a smaller saw too.

More power = able to run a larger bar = temptation to cut larger trees = ability to get in over your head & hurt. But you can still get hurt with a smaller saw and widowmakers on smaller dead trees.

The ability to hurt yourself is increased with a larger saw. But I would liken it to a motorcycle. A lot of people will tell you when first learning to get a small engine bike before you buy a Hyabusa, simply because there is less potential to hurt yourself. But really it all comes down to the operator, their skill, and the decisions they make at the end of the day.

 

[johnsayen]

Thanks all. I’m having a continuous argument with myself about whether a 462 with a 20” ES light bar is too much saw for me. I feel comfortable with the 261 but when I pick the 462 up in the store it feels like a beefcake. Granted, it’s got a 25 regular bar on it which I’m sure doesn’t help. Aside from the weight and intimidating size not having run a 70cc saw (or anything bigger than a 50cc) before it’s one of those things you just don’t know until you know, if that makes sense.

 

[toadman]

I went from a top handle echo 3400 saw which was my first saw, & I didn't think it had enough power, to the most powerful thing I could find for sale when I was 14, a husky 394 (93cc, 30 lbs with the 30+inch bar) because nobody told me any better.
Neither of my parents cared, or probably knew what the difference was besides size & that I was gone for 12 hours with my bicycle to get it.
The biggest thing I had ran at that point was a stihl MS 460 till then & I thought it was the most powerful thing ever...
The 394 scared me enough the first time I ran it I actually tore parts off, and sold the bar & chain.
It spent 6 years in my closet partially dissasembled while I went through a bunch of other saws... the 460 didn't scare me , it fascinated me!!
I have the 462, and that 460 now, and I would say if it scares you that's probably a good sign that you respect it & likely will treat it according.
Yes, it's a handful.
My 462 with a 25" light bar handles easier than my 291 with a 20" bar & I find it less fatiguing to run than the 291.

 

[Ryan'smilling]

Thanks all. I’m having a continuous argument with myself about whether a 462 with a 20” ES light bar is too much saw for me. I feel comfortable with the 261 but when I pick the 462 up in the store it feels like a beefcake. Granted, it’s got a 25 regular bar on it which I’m sure doesn’t help. Aside from the weight and intimidating size not having run a 70cc saw (or anything bigger than a 50cc) before it’s one of those things you just don’t know until you know, if that makes sense.

If you cut much wood over 16" that 462 will feel natural pretty quickly. There's a lotta guys from Michigan on here. Can you find someone semi-local with some 70cc saws who you can visit? I've helped several neighbors buy saws, and putting different sizes in their hands and letting them compare how they feel in the cut is very helpful.

 

[Bret4207]

I've had far more kick back close calls with small saws with short bars than with larger saws with longer bars. Part of the reason is because with a shorter bar you hunch over the saw more so your kisser is closer to the bar. That's part of the reason almost everything I really use has at least an 18" bar on it and 20-24" just feels more "normal" to me, more balanced. I've never been hurt with a larger saw, but I have with smaller saws. Yes, it was mostly my fault for hurrying but it sticks with you.

 

[RED-85-Z51]

You won't adapt to more power and length unless you move up to it.

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk

 

[lone wolf]

I never saw a MS 200T kick back as hard as a MS 440. The lighter the saw and less power the more control you have . If you dont believe me climb with a big saw then with a small saw then tell me. Tree service owner 45 years.

 

[toadman]

I never saw a MS 200T kick back as hard as a MS 440. The lighter the saw and less power the more control you have . If you dont believe me climb with a big saw then with a small saw then tell me. Tree service owner 45 years.

My worst kickback was an 028, I was cutting along a fence with a tiny little short bar & caught a piece of tensioned wire... oof.

push back from a pinch is a big thing with large saws that's not as much of an issue with smaller saws.
I have actually seen 90cc saws with longer bars push people over backwards when the chain on top gets pinched exiting a cut.
Also I have seen many people stumble when they get pulled towards the log with a larger torque heavy saw.
Rotational kickback is there to, & I find no real advantage to a long bar.
Long bar just slows the rotation arc a bit, often not triggering the brake.
A short bar normally trips the brake on a saw if the kick is big enough.
Both scenarios are more issues about proper body/hand positioning and 90% Operator issues than saw isdues IMO.
as for in tree, I hate running a powerful massive saw in tree unless the wood is also massive.
I have a deep appreciation for my top handles & the added maneuvering ability & control they offer for delicate tight work.
In tree work is 90% of why I still have my 291 & why I still like the 025.
I feel safer when running a adequate, but not uber high powered saw 60 feet up cutting 20" of trunk wood 10" from my chest/face/ropes.
the replacement cost in the off chance I drop itbis also a factor. I don't always like to tether 20lb saws to myself in hairy removals.

 

[lone wolf]

My worst kickback was an 028, I was cutting along a fence with a tiny little short bar & caught a piece of tensioned wire... oof.

push back from a pinch is a big thing with large saws that's not as much of an issue with smaller saws.
I have actually seen 90cc saws with longer bars push people over backwards when the chain on top gets pinched exiting a cut.
Also I have seen many people stumble when they get pulled towards the log with a larger torque heavy saw.
Rotational kickback is there to, & I find no real advantage to a long bar.
Long bar just slows the rotation arc a bit, often not triggering the brake.
A short bar normally trips the brake on a saw if the kick is big enough.
Both scenarios are more issues about proper body/hand positioning and 90% Operator issues than saw isdues IMO.
as for in tree, I hate running a powerful massive saw in tree unless the wood is also massive.
I have a deep appreciation for my top handles & the added maneuvering ability & control they offer for delicate tight work.
In tree work is 90% of why I still have my 291 & why I still like the 025.
I feel safer when running a adequate, but not uber high powered saw 60 feet up cutting 20" of trunk wood 10" from my chest/face/ropes.
the replacement cost in the off chance I drop itbis also a factor. I don't always like to tether 20lb saws to myself in hairy removals.

I had a MS 440 literally fly out of a pinched cut and hit me in the boot.

 

[BradSt]

Thanks all. I’m having a continuous argument with myself about whether a 462 with a 20” ES light bar is too much saw for me. I feel comfortable with the 261 but when I pick the 462 up in the store it feels like a beefcake. Granted, it’s got a 25 regular bar on it which I’m sure doesn’t help. Aside from the weight and intimidating size not having run a 70cc saw (or anything bigger than a 50cc) before it’s one of those things you just don’t know until you know, if that makes sense.

Use common sense, don't cut when you're tired or mentally distracted, don't be in a hurry, and try not to stand in line with the bar/chain. Be aware of the situations that cause chainsaw injuries, such as kickback dangers and cutting when you're out of position. Also, always be aware of where that bar tip is while you're cutting. Always wear chaps and steel toe boots. I don't feel more at risk when I'm using my larger saws...I just know that I will tire faster with them.

You'll be used to that saw in no time. Just take it slow. Also, get the dealer to install a regular 20" E bar on it, so you can get a feel for it. That 25" ES is significantly heavier, and changes the balance of the saw. Good luck with your decision.

 

[edisto]

More power = heavier saw = tires you out faster

I much prefer getting tired from moving the saw from one cut to the next over getting tired trying to make a cut with an undersized saw.

 

[farmguywithasaw]

I never saw a MS 200T kick back as hard as a MS 440. The lighter the saw and less power the more control you have . If you dont believe me climb with a big saw then with a small saw then tell me. Tree service owner 45 years.

There is also the size of the tooth to consider 1/4 or 3/8lp has much smaller bite than 3/8 or .404

 

[CausticUC]

I never saw a MS 200T kick back as hard as a MS 440. The lighter the saw and less power the more control you have . If you dont believe me climb with a big saw then with a small saw then tell me. Tree service owner 45 years.

Have you saw the video with the Romanian arborist in England?

Lighter saws have the unfortunate problem of people thinking they can do things they shouldn't, and when things go wrong they go really bad really quick. It's that small and light = toy mentality and why I personally think the battery powered saws in hardware stores is a bad trend.

Larger equipment usually gives pause to think, however its back to training/skill/experience. Yes, you can pinch a bar, but you are likely expecting it might happen and position or wedge accordingly. That rare, unexpected chain break ... that's what gear is for and you appreciate after it all files back at you!