Outdoor wood stoves

[fwpitts]

Outdoor stove

I've been following this post for a while now. I really want to put one of these units in. I have narrowed my choices to the central boiler and the aqua-therm(I think). I have had the opportunity to see both of them. These two dealers live within 45 minutes of me. I live in southern NH and kind of in a suburb. All the houses have at least 2 acres and the closest one is about 100 ft from my house. A lot of people have wood stoves. I understand the outside units may eat quite a lot of wood, I think I can easily get 10 cords a year for free. The first two at least from my own property. My biggest concern is the smoke. From what I have seen the Aquatherm may be the least smoky because of the forced draft. Does anyone have any real experience with the Aquatherm unit. I have a small 1600 ft house. I think I would want the smallest unsheltered unit. I have a shed that is 65 feet from the back of my house which is also down wind. Any additional info would help as well as some pictures of a unit that is firing up. Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated. I have veen to every web site I can find. Even the Aqua therm site but there seems to be very little quality info out there. That is kinda sad considering how much these things cost.

 

[Crofter]

Forced draught or not, when they are in the off cycle, they smoke. Smoke does not go straight up and on calm days, downdraughts can take it right into your neighbors house. I think Treeco is right.

 

[bwalker]

Frank, when off cycle a good boiler barely smokes. Where the smoke problem starts is when you have a long off cycle. When the boiler kicks on after being dormat for such a long time it takes awhile before the fire box gets hot enought for clean combustion (firebrick liners help with this). I posted some pics in this thread of what the smoke levels of my stove are like. I might also point out that the problem alot of people run into is the fact that they buy units to large for there needs. To operate with the lowest amount of smoke possible the unit has to be sized right,m designed right, and fueled right with respect to fill times.
In answe to someone else question as to how much wood you will use i per winter. I cant really answer that for you, but my house is speced as follows 2000sq', has alot of windows, walk out basement, etc, built about 6 years ago, 2x6 construction, farely good insulation and windows, have a infloor hydronic type propane boiler, with boiler mate for hotwater, live in the UP of michigan were as a rule it doesnt stay terribly cold for long periods and I shot my propane sytem off starting in the early fall and dont turn it back on untill the end of April. I use between 10 and 15 full cords per year. Keep in mind I burn alot of junk wood in the spring and early fall. if I burnt only good wood I could probaly get by with ten cord.

 

[daddieslilgirl]

my dads doesnt smoke unless someone forgets to fill it! lol then it has to heat back up. nobody worries about smoke or any such thing because EVERYONE on our hill burns wood so thats not a problem, and nobody b!@#$%^ !

 

[timberdog]

My biggest concern is the smoke. From what I have seen the Aquatherm may be the least smoky because of the forced draft. Does anyone have any real experience with the Aquatherm unit.

I heat with the Central Boiler. Three houses a pool and shop. Use a big unit and live in the center of a city. Neighbors less than 100 feet. Most smoke problems are from people burning garbage or tires. Also the stack height is usually the root of the whole thing. The HPBA has a set of guidelines called best burn practices. I think that there is a link or it is displayed at centralboiler.com .

As for the Aquatherm. A friend of mine had one given to him, He in turn is giving it to the Central Boiler dealer for a discount on his new Classic. See if you can find any documented test results. Facts are facts. Timberdog http://www.centralboiler.com/media/misc-BestBurnPractices.pdf

 

[bwalker]

Aquatherms are one of the best on market..
Timberdog, I would love to see the tests you made mention of.

 

[timberdog]

Published test

http://www.centralboiler.com/efficiency.php

Bwalker, here are most likely the only test results that you will find posted. If you can find any, I would also love to read them. These tests were performed by Wornok Hersey. The same test lab that did the original UL listing for the stove you use yourself. After the firebox design change, the test was performed on the Classic again to show an improvement to 6,300 BTU's per pound transferred thermal efficiency. To read the actual documents you will have to travel to Greenbush MN. In the next year or two ASTM test protocol will be established to set EPA standards. There will be a lot of published results then.

By the way what size Heatmor is it that you have again? Also can you tell me the rated heat transfer square footage of that model? Thanks. Timberdog

 

[bwalker]

The "tests" amount to little more than sales BS as far as I can tell. As I have said before efficancy and outdoor woodboiler are pretty much mutually exclusive terms.
the heatmore I have is I believe a 200 series. Its been problem free and plenty efficiant for my needs..

 

[fwpitts]

Outdoor Boiler

Now this is the kind of discussions I have been looking for! Who owns exactly what brands and what are their results?

I have to say, I agree with Ben on the potential BS Factor. I have spent countless hours on the web trying to find test results on outdoor boilers. I did find the one at Central Boiler but I really couldn't figure some things out like!
1. What are the other four of the five leading manufactures they are talking about, obviously they Show Central as being one of them.
2. By whose standards are they the top five. Centrals?
3. Why not list the models as names not model numbers. Those model numbers mean nothing to me. I do not know who they are.
4. Why is Central Boilers site the only place I can find any reference to these tests? Are they slanted to-wards Central?

Woodheat.org give some insight to the potential hazards of burning wood in these stoves. Is it a slanted opinion?
I also seen some figures our from the EPA. I work for the Gov't. Knowing how they operate, I do NOT trust their Stats.

What the consumer wants to know is how much is one going to cost, what is the payback, how much work is it going to be, it it reliable, and in this case, is it going to smoke and how much and how can you alleviate smoke, ETC...

NONE of the manufactures seem to answer these simple questions. If I missed it some place please let me know. They all claim they are the best! So does Ford, Chrysler, and Chevrolet! Which one is best? I think it just depends on who you talk to!

The only manufacturers website that I have looked at that does not have outrageous claims is Aqua-Therm. They are the only one (that I have seem) that states to properly size their unit. Then they state you should get 10-12 hours before tending your fire. This sounds more realistic than what some of them are claiming. And, they are the only manufacture that offers a unit way under $5000.

Their Web Site is very simple. At first I thought is was too simple. I am now thinking that "Less may actually be more".
Based on what I have been reading , I am definately leaning toward the Aqua- Therm.

I think this is some great discussion. Thanks

 

[timberdog]

Homework

This site has a lot of great input, but it does have very opinionated slants as well. Like you said Ford, Chevy, or Dodge.

I have also spent a lot of hours on the web, also time and money traveling.
As I have said before I have personally toured several manufacturers facilities. I have viewed the testing procedures while testing was in progress for certification by Omni test labs. Central is first and only company that I am aware of to be conducting these tests. It all started with an EPA test in 1994 when they were trying to outlaw single bypass wood-stoves. The result showed that the Classic single bypass design outperformed the Taylor triple bypass design in every category. Then the same tests were then conducted using Central, Taylor, Woodmaster, Heatmor, and Hardy. These brands were used to compare the different firebox designs. Round/square, single bypass/double etc. These were the lead selling manufacturers of those designs at the time. Model numbers were used for size and also to be polite.
If you are a top notch company, you stay on top by knowing what the competition claims and what they can deliver, That said. Central Boiler paid to have the testing done HOWEVER the tests performed were EPA-5G and EPA-28A and done by Wornok Hersey without input from Central.
Just so you know that the Classic design burning gas with the dual fuel option, proved the unit to be 87% efficient as tested to standards for an indoor gas boiler.

Woodheat.org is written and maintained by persons directly tied into the indoor wood stove industry. Thats who pays their salary. It does have a definite slant against outdoor wood-stoves of any kind. Note that the Classic emissions are 6.2 GPH well below the EPA standard for an indoor stove at 7.5 GPH. They have some good information, but they are seriously slanted.

If someone has better intel than I have been able to gather I would love to read it. Also Central makes a cost conscious model called the hydro-fire. It starts at $4,025.00. 18 cubic foot 409 stainless firebox, twenty-five year warranty. This is also a UL listed product not like the off brands who won't have their units tested. Good day. Timberdog.

 

[timberdog]

Heatmor

Bwalker, I'm glad you are happy with your unit, most are. Apparently you have done some homework too. By touring most of the outdoor wood sites you have probably noticed a basis. According to several sources the average annual heat load in the Northern US. is 100million btu. per season. If you read the Heatmor FAQ you will see that they project "average" consumption of 6 - 10 full cord of fair quaility wood. Also loading the unit twice per day.

The Classic shows "average" consumption of 4 -6 full cord. Loading once per day. Considering delivered BTU's per pound, operating stack temperature, emissions, and heat loss from the stoves themselves, The Heatmor literature also shows the same results as the test results. Approximately 40% more wood consumption for the same 100million delivered BTU.

I know that Heatmor has 8,000 square feet dedicated to testing and R&D. When I was there last summer it was not yet operating. AS of last week they will still not give any emission test results. Also note that on your unit the heat transfer square footage is not listed. It is published in the Classic literature, and on many other brand sites on the net. What it shows is that it takes a Model 400 to even come close to the performance of a small Classic 4436. Also people should look at cost per cubic foot of firebox. It takes some math but you will also find dollar for dollar the Classic is very competitive. Timberdog.

 

[Giffordpa]

anybody heard of "The Wood Doctor" stove?

I plan on buying an outdoor wood furnace this summer. Through the discussions I see that the two top ones seem to be Heatmor and Central Boiler. I was really leaning towards the Heatmor, actually I had made up my mind. (Still a little concerned about the venting through the roof and the water filled door.) Then a friend bought a Central boiler so I sent and looked at it. Seems well built, it vents out the back but has no grates... and it's forced draft is an over via the door.
Anyway, then I stumbled upon The Wood Doctor. Seems to be very complicated but looks very efficient. The problem is I cant' find anywhere how long they've been in business.
Any thoughts???

 

[fwpitts]

Wood Doctor

I asked The wood Doctor dealer for some information. I was a little disappointed that It took them four weeks to get back to me especially since I am only about three hours away from their dealership in Bangor Maine. But here is what they sent me. Looks like it could be a good stove. Although I couldn't't find much info about them other than what was on their website.

FWIW I think you should look at the postings from BWalker. I believe he did some considerable research. Others did too. Central looks impressive at first but do some serious research before making your final decision. I have done a lot of reading and narrowed my choice down between the Heatmor and Aqua-Therm. In the end I think your choice should be dealer location, support, warranty, and final cost. There is a lot of other items to buy besides the boiler. I found a good dealer and good price in the Aqua therm, everything total for less that 5000. including the side arm water heat exchanger an 100' of pipe end insulation. I am going to install it in my own shed. Time will tell what the unit will really be like. I just ordered mine today. Now I have all summer to get it installed and get about 10 cords of wood piled next to it.
I plan on posting all my experiences from ordering, installing and actual performance on my project to this site. Hopefully others can learn from my success's as well as failures, as I sure there will be lots of both. I am just starting my adventure but am really looking forward to it. Should be fun and hopefully save some money in the end!

Happy shopping

Posting from Wood Doctor 20 March 2005
Good morning:
TODAY THERE IS A DEALER IN YOUR AREA
AT THIS TIME, IT IS POSSIBLE FOR OUR DEALER TO PROVIDE YOU WITH A UNIT
A THE
FOLLOWING PROMOTION., AT $1000. LESS MONEY THAN OUR NORMAL PRICING

OUR CURRENT SALE on ¼” certified boilerplate
Regular size heats up to 4000 sq ft $5190.00
Medium size heats up to 8000 sq ft $6190.00
Extra large heats up to 14000 sq ft $7490.00 USD

With an order right away, THE DEALER CAN LOCK THIS SALE IN FOR YOU.

Heavyweight Stainless furnaces are slightly cheaper per furnace.
These are 8 gauge firebox and 10 gauge water-jacket.
Heaviest in industry.

Light duty stainless furnaces of 10 gauge firebox and 12 gauge
water-jacket
carry only a 10 year warranty.

Our 30 YEAR WARRANTY is on our 1/4" certified BOILERPLATE UNITS.

CONTACT BRUCE POMERLAU 603-335-1576 OR ED TREMBLAY 603-859-0534 FOR
INFORMATION OR ORDERING.



>From: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]

 

[timberdog]

Fwpitts, could you guide me to some of that info, more than the Aquatherm site. It must be some interesting reading. Send an e-mail if you like. Timberdog.

 

[fwpitts]

Aqua-Therm

Timberdog,

Unfortunately you are not going to find anything else concrete on the Aqua-therm. You can get more literature from the company. Even the literature they send out isn't really anything new. The only pertinate info you will find is on this site, testimonial sites, and discussion boards, and they all have different OPINIONS about which design or Brand is better. Round or Square. Stainless or Boiler plate. I certainly do NOT have any qualifications that can determine which information is correct. I am looking for information myself. From reading information posted on many sites I don't think anyone really does. All brands claim to have the best. Below is a sampling of sites I have found. Unfortunately I did not bookmark them all.

The owners of aqua therm used to work for Weil-McClain.
http://www.contractormag.com/articles/newsarticle.cfm?newsid=230

Read down to Christine in NY, testimonial
http://homesteadingtoday.com/vb/showthread.php?p=310736

An actual installation
http://www.ringolake.com/the_shop/hw_heat/outdoor_boiler.html

Go to their FAQ section
http://www.cozyheat.net/aqua-therm-outdoor-wood-furnace.phtml

Another Pressurized barrel design.
http://www.wdheat.com/2004-site/wood-usage.html

A unit similar to Tarm and the Wood doctor, notice the price.
http://www.rohor.com/

Great unit, GARN. I have an e-mail with their prices. Sticker Shock, Most expensive one I found for home use.
http://www.dectra.net/garn/#

http://wooddoctorfurnace.com

I have a friend that sells Central Boiler, he lives 20 miles from my house(NH). I visited him to see his working unit. I was at his house for about 3 hours in the evening. It had been loaded first thing that morning. His unit definitely heated his house well. It did put out what I thought as a lot of smoke, at least for my use. I asked for a price quote. The smallest unit was $6600 with hot water heat exchanger and all parts, Not including the piping at 12.50 per foot. He also has to add chemicals, ashtrol and has keep an eye on the unpressurized water level and PH level.

I visited the dealer for Aqua-Therm Which is about 25 miles from my house. I had never met him before but he impressed me. He said he had been researching outdoor boilers for 5 years before making his decision. He is also a certified plummer and electrician. I went to his house about the same time of day as my friends visit. His unit also heated the house well. All conditions were about the same such as it was it was loaded first thing in the morning, I spent about 3 hours at his house, etc... He does not have to add any chemicals, never has to check water level of his sealed system, I tried to get pictures of the trickle of smoke coming out. Not enough to show up on the film.
I got a price quote. $4800 dollars for smallest unsheltered unit with Hot water heat exchanger all parts included and INCLUDED 100' of pipe and insulation.

A pressurized system makes sense to me. All Oil fired furnaces are pressurized. Stainless makes sense to me also, lower corrosion. And at least in theory the round firebox has less stress points than a square one. Aqua-Therm now gives a lifetime warranty. 6 years full replacement then prorated. You don't get that from any regular furnace dealer that I know of except System 2000.

Since none of these units are efficient, what is the bottom line? Return On Your Investment. I am a little worried about smoke but I cant justify the higher costs of TARM, Seton or GARN. Too many years for pay back plus you can't burn junk wood in these units. Another plus is no need to buy additional chemicals. (added cost to some units), If I decide to put Anti-Freeze in the unit, it is only 48 Gallons, not 150 Gallons.

I figure on current Oil prices (and they will go up) and keeping my current electric hot water heater, I will pay for the Aqua-Therm in about 3 years with free wood. We spent about $800 on fuel oil this year, $700 on furnace repairs and approx $90 per month for the electric hot water heater.

I will definitely post my savings to this site. There really is not a great information sites out there. Only opinions. This Site has by far had the most info posted on it that I can find. I will post what actually happens with my installation and what issues come up. The Good. Bad and Ugly!!

Have a Great Day!
Farrell

 

[timberdog]

How is the project.

Hello Farrell, Was wondering how your project was coming along. Also had a few questions.
Since your purchase was an unsheltered unit and you planned on puttting it into an existing structure, what were your plans to keep the heat in the stove?
In your two examples earlier, did both units have sufficient wood supply to last the night or would they need to be refilled before morning?
Also from my calculations the unit that you purchased would have an elven cubic foot firebox. The small Classic has a twenty five cubic foot chamber. So, what was the cost per cubic foot for your unit?
What kind of insulated pipe was supplied with the unit, for the price you mentioned?
Seems that this site dies out as the temp rises. Hope your projct is going as well as planned. Good day, Timberdog.

 

[fwpitts]

Aquatherm

Hi Timberdog,
I received the unit about a month ago. I am a little behind schedule in getting it installed. It is still sitting in my barn. As far a keeping the heat in, it comes with insulation that has a thermal (foil) covering on it. It wraps around the entire unit except the door.

I have become friends with the dealer and we talk often. He says the load will depend on lots of factors such as type of wood, temp outside and other factors. (Same as many of the postings on this site). I spoke with him yesterday and he is simmering his on a three day cycle right now for hot water. Temps around here have been on the cool side until this week. He has the next larger unit. I anticipate I will need to load twice a day on average. Of course this is only a guess. I intentionally wanted the smallest unit. Based on what I have read oversizing is the worst thing you could do! Better Off loading more often so the fire does not smolder as much. Smoke is my biggest concern since I do have neighbors.
The dealer has been experimenting with his and stated he believes he gets the same burn time weather he loads it half way or a full load. We'll see!

Cost per cubic foot, that is an interesting question! Never thought about it that way. I guess I will have to figure that one out! It is a small firebox compared to the classic I looked at. I got a real good deal on it but the price has increased about 17% since I purchased mine.

The pipe is 1" pex (same as the classic). It has a 6" close cell styro-foam insulation which needs to be inserted into a thin walled sewer pipe. I still need to get this installed. I have that planned for next weekend(HOPEFULLY).

You are right, it seems when it gets warm the guys forget about posting updates! I will keep my promise, I will post my entire project experience to this site! There really needs to be more info out there on these units. Especially as the oil prices will only continue to rise.

By the way, the Classic dealer I know wants to help me with the install so he can learn about the Aquatherm. INTERESTING!

I am excited to get started. I hope I get in installed before the cold returns!!

Thanks for asking, Farrell

 

[timberdog]

Progress

Hey Farrel, how is the project going? I had a question for you. In your past posts you commented that the Aquatherm dealer stated that filling the unit or loading it half way seemed to get relatively comparable burn times. Did he give you an explanation for this? Thanks Timberdog.

 

[bwalker]

Ghitch, you still around I want to buy some of that insulated woodboiler pipe you sell.

 

[ghitch75]

i sent you an email