Id say the vinegar with some baking soda was the cheapest, easiest and worked well enough to warrant the effort of walking to the cupboard to get some.
Philbert's Chain Salvage Challenge
- Thread starter Philbert
- Start date
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What you need is a big ole' Remington that takes 7/16" x .058" chain. Then you will learn to control 'The Force'.
fearofpavement
Trying them all
vinegar (an acid) and baking soda (a base) when mixed neutralize each other. What is the benefit of using both?
Thanks for the interest. I have 'been away' from the site for awhile, due to 'the troubles'. Also having some personal computer issues I need to deal with.
I had shot a lot of photos and collected a bunch of case studies before the problems began, but put that stuff aside. Hopefully, I can dig it back up again in a few weeks.
Also have to take a little time to get familiar with the new forum software etc. Familiar, but different. Plan to be back, and to pick up where I left off.
Philbert
I had shot a lot of photos and collected a bunch of case studies before the problems began, but put that stuff aside. Hopefully, I can dig it back up again in a few weeks.
Also have to take a little time to get familiar with the new forum software etc. Familiar, but different. Plan to be back, and to pick up where I left off.
Philbert
FWIW Philbert, I have used this thread as an example of how some threads maintain certain images while others don't in discussions with one of the admin folks who is also trying to help sort out the lingering issues associated with the site transition. The extended stuff like Photobucket and those types of links are still going to work provided those links are still valid connections to the external resources.
The inline images that would otherwise be embedded in a post after uploading a file to AS and then inserting it as a pic are what is missing from the transition at this point...and evidently gone forever as I have been told.
In the case of thumbnail images remaining in a post and likely being there from a slightly less than correct file upload procedure in the first place, they can indeed be recovered and put back into place inline as was originally intended by simply changing a few lines in the code. I can float that your way or provide you with a link to the discussion, which has been a bit contentious at times and may not be worth wading through just to learn the method for re-posting pics of thumbnails. I'd just as happily walk you through what I know about it and see if it actually works as advertised. Haven't tried it myself, yet.
I also have them working on the question mark instead of an apostrophe matter in the thread title.
The inline images that would otherwise be embedded in a post after uploading a file to AS and then inserting it as a pic are what is missing from the transition at this point...and evidently gone forever as I have been told.
In the case of thumbnail images remaining in a post and likely being there from a slightly less than correct file upload procedure in the first place, they can indeed be recovered and put back into place inline as was originally intended by simply changing a few lines in the code. I can float that your way or provide you with a link to the discussion, which has been a bit contentious at times and may not be worth wading through just to learn the method for re-posting pics of thumbnails. I'd just as happily walk you through what I know about it and see if it actually works as advertised. Haven't tried it myself, yet.
I also have them working on the question mark instead of an apostrophe matter in the thread title.
Thanks Pogo,
I have been able to go back and edit older posts, including titles, and will try (over time) to replace photos and links in some of my threads, including this one.
Fortunately, the thumbnail photos in this thread have remained intact (maybe because it is a more recent thread?).
Unfortunately, many links and photos in those linked threads have also been lost, and I have no way to replace most of those if they were not 'mine' - part of the richness of the AS archive.
We will see what we can do!
Philbert
I have been able to go back and edit older posts, including titles, and will try (over time) to replace photos and links in some of my threads, including this one.
Fortunately, the thumbnail photos in this thread have remained intact (maybe because it is a more recent thread?).
Unfortunately, many links and photos in those linked threads have also been lost, and I have no way to replace most of those if they were not 'mine' - part of the richness of the AS archive.
We will see what we can do!
Philbert
After reading this thread last fall I bought some Oxycylic Acid and tried it out on a Rototiller that I left sitting outside during the flood we had late last summer. When I tried to start the tiller to move it to my shed it was jacked up. Water in the tank, in the Briggs 5 HP carb, in the air filter housing, and the 5 balls in the starting cup were rusted and locked into their resting spots.
The acid worked ok, it did not remove all the rust. I'm not sure that it was worth the hassle of ordering, mixing and disposing it. I have quite a bit more Oxycylic powder left over. The gas tank still has some rust in it even after filling it with acid and water for a week. The starter balls still show signs of having been rusted.
I rebuilt the carb, it sits on a diaphragm on top of the tank, but after using the machine in the spring I'm going take the tank off to try the electric bath rust removal method. I do have a spare 5HP Briggs with a cracked crankcase that I removed from my splitter sitting in a plastic tub that would be a source for parts if I still have rust.
The acid worked ok, it did not remove all the rust. I'm not sure that it was worth the hassle of ordering, mixing and disposing it. I have quite a bit more Oxycylic powder left over. The gas tank still has some rust in it even after filling it with acid and water for a week. The starter balls still show signs of having been rusted.
I rebuilt the carb, it sits on a diaphragm on top of the tank, but after using the machine in the spring I'm going take the tank off to try the electric bath rust removal method. I do have a spare 5HP Briggs with a cracked crankcase that I removed from my splitter sitting in a plastic tub that would be a source for parts if I still have rust.
Steve NW WI
Unwanted Riff Raff.
Feeling lucky, Phil? Found under concrete at work while doing some renovations:
Next-to-new STIHL chain I picked out of someone's shop trash can because it had some surface rust on half a dozen links and a few tight rivets. Had been sharpened once.
A soak in some leftover EvapoRust, worked the tight links a little, a little brushing and WD-40, and voila! Just needs a light touch up on the edges.
3/8" low pro, .050, 61 drive links (?) must have been an 18" bar? Will probably spin it down to 56 DL.
This chain was long enough that I could have spun it down to a usable loop, even if a few of the links were toast. It is a common enough chain that I could also have salvaged portions of it, and spliced it with other, identical chain later on, for the cost of a few pre-sets: much cheaper than buying a new loop.
WINNER? - Philbert!
Philbert
A soak in some leftover EvapoRust, worked the tight links a little, a little brushing and WD-40, and voila! Just needs a light touch up on the edges.
3/8" low pro, .050, 61 drive links (?) must have been an 18" bar? Will probably spin it down to 56 DL.
This chain was long enough that I could have spun it down to a usable loop, even if a few of the links were toast. It is a common enough chain that I could also have salvaged portions of it, and spliced it with other, identical chain later on, for the cost of a few pre-sets: much cheaper than buying a new loop.
WINNER? - Philbert!
Philbert
UPDATE - POST #26
The wrenches that Steve NW WI provided were easy to clean - all surface rust. Most of the chemical methods mentioned (vinegar, EvapoRust, oxalic acid) would work. Electrolysis, Naval Jelly, or abrasive buffing (ScotchBrite wheel) would also work, although, they might damage chrome plating (was already missing quite a bit on these wrenches, so that's a toss up).
This was my first use of EvapoRust. Note the 'halo' of removed rust surrounding the wrenches as they soak.
.
The wrenches were still 'less than perfect' wrenches when cleaned. Removing rust does not replace any lost metal or chrome, fill in any pits, etc. They will also rust again unless painted or protected some other way. These were hit with a ScotchBrite pad after soaking.
The chain (Challenge Chain #5?) was was coated in uniform rust. When Steve gave it to me, it held it's shape as a loop despite gravity.
I cleaned it with SuperClean, then soaked it in EvapoRust for several days. When it came out I was able to read some of the markings on the chain (Oregon), identify it (.404), and loosen up some of the links. The chain still had a dull appearance - not all of the rust had been removed.
But I was able move enough of the links to fit it in an old peanut butter jar back in late October/early November with a 50% acetone/50% ATF penetrant. Agitated it periodically. Checked it weekly. After a month or so, there was not much difference from when I put it in. Disappointed, but I left it out there in the garage and will check it again once the weather warms up and I can dig it out.
Philbert
The wrenches that Steve NW WI provided were easy to clean - all surface rust. Most of the chemical methods mentioned (vinegar, EvapoRust, oxalic acid) would work. Electrolysis, Naval Jelly, or abrasive buffing (ScotchBrite wheel) would also work, although, they might damage chrome plating (was already missing quite a bit on these wrenches, so that's a toss up).
This was my first use of EvapoRust. Note the 'halo' of removed rust surrounding the wrenches as they soak.
.
The wrenches were still 'less than perfect' wrenches when cleaned. Removing rust does not replace any lost metal or chrome, fill in any pits, etc. They will also rust again unless painted or protected some other way. These were hit with a ScotchBrite pad after soaking.
The chain (Challenge Chain #5?) was was coated in uniform rust. When Steve gave it to me, it held it's shape as a loop despite gravity.
I cleaned it with SuperClean, then soaked it in EvapoRust for several days. When it came out I was able to read some of the markings on the chain (Oregon), identify it (.404), and loosen up some of the links. The chain still had a dull appearance - not all of the rust had been removed.
But I was able move enough of the links to fit it in an old peanut butter jar back in late October/early November with a 50% acetone/50% ATF penetrant. Agitated it periodically. Checked it weekly. After a month or so, there was not much difference from when I put it in. Disappointed, but I left it out there in the garage and will check it again once the weather warms up and I can dig it out.
Philbert
Challenge Chain Number Three
(NOTE *** posted out of sequence due to re-building this thread)
This prospect was mailed to me by a newer A.S. member due to the earlier thread. The older style links might look cool on someone’s restoration saw from the right era. It had surface rust on several of the links, but all of the rivets rotate freely, which is a good sign.
Purchased a gallon of EvapoRust and soaked the chain in it for 2 hours. Very impressed! All of the surface rust is gone, except for a few spots. Because these spots are so localized, and not on the chrome portions of the cutters, I will just use a few dabs of Naval Jelly on them.
The surface of the metal and the chrome look fine. The rivets look good. The chain has a dull grey appearance, instead of looking shiny, but that is cosmetic, and people say that it will wear off. Wire brushing removes it. If someone wants a shiny chain they can polish it. Maybe if I checked the chain earlier there would be less of this dark coating?
Cleaned up, I can tell that this is a 3/8 pitch, .050 gauge chain, with bumper tie straps that look like a 57 Chevy. Don’t know the brand. Marked ‘L’ and ‘R’ on the left and right tie straps. Marked ‘370’ on the drive links. EDIT: I think this is a Carlton / McCulloch chain.
Little wear on the cutters, but lots of peening on the drive links and the bottoms of the tie straps. Probably run on a worn sprocket; possibly a worn bar. Lots of good diagnostic sketches for chains, bars, and sprockets towards the rear of the Oregon Maintenance and Safety Manual (http://www.oregonproducts.com/maintenance/manual.htm ). Will clean up the drive links with a ScotchBrite wheel on a bench motor, then the chain is ready for normal sharpening and a lube job.
WINNER? - Philbert!
LESSONS? - EvapoRust very promising on surface rust.
(NOTE *** posted out of sequence due to re-building this thread)
This prospect was mailed to me by a newer A.S. member due to the earlier thread. The older style links might look cool on someone’s restoration saw from the right era. It had surface rust on several of the links, but all of the rivets rotate freely, which is a good sign.
Purchased a gallon of EvapoRust and soaked the chain in it for 2 hours. Very impressed! All of the surface rust is gone, except for a few spots. Because these spots are so localized, and not on the chrome portions of the cutters, I will just use a few dabs of Naval Jelly on them.
The surface of the metal and the chrome look fine. The rivets look good. The chain has a dull grey appearance, instead of looking shiny, but that is cosmetic, and people say that it will wear off. Wire brushing removes it. If someone wants a shiny chain they can polish it. Maybe if I checked the chain earlier there would be less of this dark coating?
Cleaned up, I can tell that this is a 3/8 pitch, .050 gauge chain, with bumper tie straps that look like a 57 Chevy. Don’t know the brand. Marked ‘L’ and ‘R’ on the left and right tie straps. Marked ‘370’ on the drive links. EDIT: I think this is a Carlton / McCulloch chain.
Little wear on the cutters, but lots of peening on the drive links and the bottoms of the tie straps. Probably run on a worn sprocket; possibly a worn bar. Lots of good diagnostic sketches for chains, bars, and sprockets towards the rear of the Oregon Maintenance and Safety Manual (http://www.oregonproducts.com/maintenance/manual.htm ). Will clean up the drive links with a ScotchBrite wheel on a bench motor, then the chain is ready for normal sharpening and a lube job.
WINNER? - Philbert!
LESSONS? - EvapoRust very promising on surface rust.
Before and After on Some Similar Chains
Philbert
Philbert
Challenge Chains Number Four A & Four B
These two chains came in the same box, and looked pretty much the same. ‘Identical’ Mini-Mac chains.
A cleaning in a 'Purple' cleaner containing sodium hydroxide (aka 'lye') provided very different results! One chain cleaned up almost to ‘next-to-new’ condition, and only needs a light, touch-up sharpening. The other looks like a new challenge chain by itself - will have to try one of the rust remedies on it. Maybe grease protects against rust in some cases? Maybe grease hides rust in others? Maybe dirt holds moisture against the metal?
NOTE: This was the first time I actually used the ‘Purple Power’ brand cleaner. I first heard about it here on A.S., but found the similar looking ‘SuperClean’ product, assumed that they were the same, and have been using that. They also looked ‘the same’. But the Purple Power did not clean as aggressively. A closer look at the label lists sodium hudroxide (lye) on the SuperClean label and not on Purple Power. A second cleaning of the chains in SuperClean convinced me. Some other brands of 'Purple Cleaners' also contain sodium hydroxide, including some Zep cleaners, and some Rubbermaid Commercial cleaners - you have to read the labels.
WINNER? - Philbert! Got two working chains - one that’s pretty, and one that should still cut.
LESSONS?
1) You can’t assume what condition chains are in until you clean them up. Some dirt/grease may clean off; some may be hiding rust!
2) You can't assume how products work until you try them. I like SuperClean better than Purple Power for this application.
Philbert
These two chains came in the same box, and looked pretty much the same. ‘Identical’ Mini-Mac chains.
A cleaning in a 'Purple' cleaner containing sodium hydroxide (aka 'lye') provided very different results! One chain cleaned up almost to ‘next-to-new’ condition, and only needs a light, touch-up sharpening. The other looks like a new challenge chain by itself - will have to try one of the rust remedies on it. Maybe grease protects against rust in some cases? Maybe grease hides rust in others? Maybe dirt holds moisture against the metal?
NOTE: This was the first time I actually used the ‘Purple Power’ brand cleaner. I first heard about it here on A.S., but found the similar looking ‘SuperClean’ product, assumed that they were the same, and have been using that. They also looked ‘the same’. But the Purple Power did not clean as aggressively. A closer look at the label lists sodium hudroxide (lye) on the SuperClean label and not on Purple Power. A second cleaning of the chains in SuperClean convinced me. Some other brands of 'Purple Cleaners' also contain sodium hydroxide, including some Zep cleaners, and some Rubbermaid Commercial cleaners - you have to read the labels.
WINNER? - Philbert! Got two working chains - one that’s pretty, and one that should still cut.
LESSONS?
1) You can’t assume what condition chains are in until you clean them up. Some dirt/grease may clean off; some may be hiding rust!
2) You can't assume how products work until you try them. I like SuperClean better than Purple Power for this application.
Philbert
good on ya phil. glad to see this thread resurrected. finally got a battery charger. now just got to try it out.
Be careful with the electricity and water! Especially if you leave it running where someone might 'find' it.
Philbert
A Few More Notes
Drying chains in the oven to remove any rust-inducing moisture after cleaning with water based degreasers (garage sale cookie sheet). 15 minutes at 150-200*F.
Brushes: the brass refinishing brushes (left side) do not hold up well for removing rust. I like the smaller, stainless steel scratch brush (second from the right) from a local welding supply house.
Oxalic Acid - comes in powder form. I bought this from a large Internet vendor named after a river in South America. Pretty inexpensive, even with S/H. Came in a zip-lock bag. I store it in a plastic jar. Initial impressions for rust removal are positive. More gentle than some other acids. Leaves a green coating after a while, which can be left on or scrubbed/brushed off.
Philbert
Drying chains in the oven to remove any rust-inducing moisture after cleaning with water based degreasers (garage sale cookie sheet). 15 minutes at 150-200*F.
Brushes: the brass refinishing brushes (left side) do not hold up well for removing rust. I like the smaller, stainless steel scratch brush (second from the right) from a local welding supply house.
Oxalic Acid - comes in powder form. I bought this from a large Internet vendor named after a river in South America. Pretty inexpensive, even with S/H. Came in a zip-lock bag. I store it in a plastic jar. Initial impressions for rust removal are positive. More gentle than some other acids. Leaves a green coating after a while, which can be left on or scrubbed/brushed off.
Philbert
l was thinking a stainless wire brush on electric die grinder and just 'kiss' the tie straps and drive links but don't touch cutter.Followed by wd-40 and wallow!
I think that it was BobL (?) who posted photos of a jig he made a few years back for running a chain with a cordless drill while he wire brushed it ? Something like that. Had to do with that weird wood they cut Down Under.
EDIT/UPDATE: link to the post http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/cleaning-long-milling-chains.150461/
Link to his YouTube video!!!
The chemical cleaners seem to work better for dirt, grease, tar, pitch, etc. The chains don't have to look shiny and pretty, but all the links need to move, oil, etc.
I think that rust can be a bigger enemy of chains than rocks.
Philbert
EDIT/UPDATE: link to the post http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/cleaning-long-milling-chains.150461/
Link to his YouTube video!!!
The chemical cleaners seem to work better for dirt, grease, tar, pitch, etc. The chains don't have to look shiny and pretty, but all the links need to move, oil, etc.
I think that rust can be a bigger enemy of chains than rocks.
Philbert
If your electrolysis method is lifting the Cr plating that mean that you have connected the object onto the wrong terminal. If it is connected the right way you won't lose any metal from the object.
FWIW I have not used my chain cleaner (which I made for removing pitch) since I made it. I now use the "load the chain with lots of oil after the last cut" method of removing pitch. By the time I come to sharpen the chain the pitch is softened enough to remove with a soak in degreaser. If I use canola our two dogs will lick any accessible chain on a bar and suck on the end of the aux oiler for hours.
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