Pine Trees, Poisoned?

[Ghtree]

How can you identify if a pine tree was poisoned? I had a client with three pines trees at the back of her fence that died very quickly, all three. The neighbors behind her have a pool. Also, the neighbor works in forestry. Is there anything I can to get the neighbors to maybe pay my client a little for her paying for three dead pine tree removal?
IMG_9314.HEIC

 

[lone wolf]

How can you identify if a pine tree was poisoned? I had a client with three pines trees at the back of her fence that died very quickly, all three. The neighbors behind her have a pool. Also, the neighbor works in forestry. Is there anything I can to get the neighbors to maybe pay my client a little for her paying for three dead pine tree removal?
IMG_9314.HEIC

See the boring beetle holes in the third pic?

 

[Woodanhor]

Imo looks like they've been dead awhile

 

[ATH]

Imo looks like they've been dead awhile

Dead or dying for a while. certainly doesn't look "sudden".

 

[iowagold]

looks like metal poisonings. black ...
copper sulfate??
or just the wrong fertilizer..
conifers like acid soil...
unless it was mold like some of the tree fungus..
send out a sample to the state nursery for testing!!

 

[buzz sawyer]

I agree with ATH, there is a lot of punky wood. Have they been down and on the ground for a while? If not, I would bet the trees have been dead for at least two years. If there really is a concern with poisoning, as already said, send some samples to the State for testing.

 

[old CB]

Just last week I removed 7 dead pines from a yard, all of which had died within a short time frame. The owners suspected pine bark beetles, but there was no evidence of that (pitch tubes will show where the beetles enter and the tree tries to drown them with pitch). Although in these cases there's virtually no way to know for certain, I told the owners I felt confident that lawn chemicals had done in their trees. They had had a new septic system installed, and the septic work area was now a deep green carpet of turf grass with not a weed to be seen--very unusual around here. I explained that trees are very sensitive to chemicals, including the concentrated salts in fertilizers. The owners said that no chemicals had been applied to the lawn, but its appearance said otherwise. I don't argue with anyone in a case like that. But my opinion remains strong.

It's unlikely that the OP can establish with certainty what killed his client's trees, but something chemical is quite likely. Could even have been the client's own lawn treatment. But a pool on the other side of the fence would raise suspicion. Hard to know and even harder to prove.

 

[Woodanhor]

a pool on the other side of the fence would raise suspicion.

When I originally read the post I thought about the pool too

I was hoping the op would come back and give more reasoning for suspecting the trees being poisoned to little information in my opinion

 

[ATH]

I'd be shocked if you'll find a state lab willing to diagnose those as being "poisoned".
1) Most herbicides are difficult to find after a few weeks
2) Even if herbicide trace is found, it doesn't mean that was the killer...it could just have been there. They put themselves in a tough legal position if the claim that herbicide killed the tree unless there is a lot more evidence.

The dark color in the wood is stain that is very typical of dead/dying pine logs. (see Blue stain, for example)

 

[ATH]

Just last week I removed 7 dead pines from a yard, all of which had died within a short time frame. The owners suspected pine bark beetles, but there was no evidence of that (pitch tubes will show where the beetles enter and the tree tries to drown them with pitch). ...

Did you peel bark off? Not all bark beetles cause pitch tubes. Not all trees respond with pitch tubes. If they trees were pre-disposed to stress and unhealthy, they may not have been vigorous enough to create pitch tubes.

What lawn chemicals do you suppose killed pines? Most broad leaf herbicides (2, 4-D, Dicamba, MCPP) kill...well, broad leaf plants very effectively but don't hit conifers as hard. Not they have no impact, but it would take a LOT to kill healthy mature pines. Besides good looking grass, do you have other evidence that herbicides caused the tree death? Are other trees nearby impacted or not impacted?

 

[old CB]

Did you peel bark off? Not all bark beetles cause pitch tubes. Not all trees respond with pitch tubes. If they trees were pre-disposed to stress and unhealthy, they may not have been vigorous enough to create pitch tubes.

What lawn chemicals do you suppose killed pines? Most broad leaf herbicides (2, 4-D, Dicamba, MCPP) kill...well, broad leaf plants very effectively but don't hit conifers as hard. Not they have no impact, but it would take a LOT to kill healthy mature pines. Besides good looking grass, do you have other evidence that herbicides caused the tree death? Are other trees nearby impacted or not impacted?

Some of the bark was peeling already. I have dealt with pine bark beetle attacks/infestations in this environment enough to know their signs pretty well. You find either one or two trees, or usually a little copse that are all dead, and you do find pitch tubes. You're correct that healthy trees put out pitch in quantity, while unhealthy trees lack resources to do so. But around here, bark beetle attacks pretty much announce themselves to a knowing eye. Bark beetles also are most successful attacking overgrown, tight forest stands that are stressed by competition and lack of sun/water. Each of the trees I removed was an open grown yard tree, not suffering from a lack of sun or moisture or anything else I could imagine.

The trees I removed were all adjacent to green lawn area, and nearby pines that were not adjacent are thriving. I can't say for certain that it was lawn chemicals, but there seems to be little else that might account for these trees all dying at once. Around here I do run across an individual pine or two that has died, and people always ask me what killed it, in which case I shrug & explain that there are many causes for tree mortality, and I am no plant pathologist. However, as an amateur who pays close attention to the trees in my environment--and they're nearly all Ponderosa Pines--I've found them to be very sensitive to chemicals of any sort. Dead pine along the driveway or roadside--due to the road salt used for ice/snow control (potassium chloride?), you can watch them succumbing over time.

So ultimately, no, I can't say with any certainty that it was lawn chemicals that killed those 7 trees. But I can say with great confidence that it was not bark beetles. My diagnosis is only a guess. But I'm hard-pressed to come up with a better one.

 

[old CB]

And BTW, ATH, I hope my response does not sound argumentative, as I appreciate intelligent discussion and am responding to your post in that vein. You clearly have more general knowledge of plant health and pathology than I do.

 

[ATH]

And BTW, ATH, I hope my response does not sound argumentative, as I appreciate intelligent discussion and am responding to your post in that vein. You clearly have more general knowledge of plant health and pathology than I do.

Not at all...that is what this place is all about! Thanks for sharing more. I haven't dealt with Ponderosa...just eastern species of pines. You certainly know that species better than I probably ever will!