Pole Saw for use around wires?

[BlueRidgeMark]

not trying too step on any body's toes here, but who do you work for because if they have told you that the "insulation" will keep you safe from being killed and that because the wire is "insulated" means you can touch it then they are wrong, keep thinking that you can't get hurt by a line that is "insulated" and you might just get bit pretty dang bad or killed, the power company's also have coated primary wires, would you grab one of those? I have seen 24,000 volt lines "insulated" lay on the ground burn and blows chunks of asphalt and concrete up as bigs as 20 inches in diameter and 2 to 3 feet deep so if that was "insulated" then why did it do that? also, when I was in Louisiana after Katrina there was a guy killed by a so called "insulate" wire.

Your post is a good illustration of what I was trying to tell Dil. A wrong understanding of what the word means can be dangerous.

Insulation does NOT mean that it will stop any and all current from flowing. It's not a black and white, on or off thing. It's not, either INSULATED, and no current can flow, or it's UNINSULATED, and current will flow. It's a continuum, a sliding scale.

It depends on the insulation and the voltages involved. And when I say the insulation, I mean the AIR insulation (that is, the space between you and the line) as well as the plastic or rubber or whatever material is being used for insulation. It depends on the THICKNESS of the insulation and the type of material (whether plastic or air or whatever). And not that it matters to this discussion, but whether it's DC or AC, and what frequency, also makes a difference.

It takes a lot more insulation to stop 24,000 volts from going where it wants to than it takes to stop 120 volts. What may be adequate insulation in one situation (up on a tower) may NOT be adequate insulation in another (laying on the ground).

Insulation is a lot LESS than you folks seem to think. It's just something that is intended to prevent electric current from going where it's not wanted. That's all. It's NOT a guarantee of safety.

If you have ENOUGH insulation, you can work around wires. That's what you do when you keep XX feet away from a wire with YYY voltage. That DISTANCE is insulation. Air insulation. The insulation on a service drop (usually polyethylene) is a much more effective dialectric than air , so you don't need as much to control the flow of current. This means you need LESS distance. Now you need mils instead of feet.

That's why Sally's local utility doesn't mind them trimming from the ground. They have proper training, and they are using proper tools for THAT job.


Have you ever seen a tree branch rubbing a service drop? Of course, you see it all the time. No big deal. Trim it back before it rubs through... What? The insulation. The stuff that keeps the two phases from shorting out.

And I keep asking this question, and nobody is even trying to answer me:

Where did I say that service drops are "safe"?

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

Mark, I was trained by linesmen, it is not considered insulation, just weather protection. I have handled it, but it is against the rules, here and apparently in the U.S.. Why are you so adament about this? And how do you figure that the guys that work around high and low voltage all the time should believe an armchair quarterback like you over linemen?

Clearance, you know I take this seriously, you've seen what I've posted about standing waves, etc.

On this subject I've posted plenty of links. "Lineman say..." doesn't mean squat when I've posted links to manufacturers specifications and utility company websites that all call this stuff insulated.

I don't know why linemen working in the industry are so badly informed, but apparently they are. Maybe they are deliberately giving out wrong information thinking that it will make people more careful, I don't know. But it's still wrong information.

Check the NEC, check any power company website, check the links I've posted. That stuff around the triplex is insulation, NOT weather coating. Uninsulated service drops are not legal anywhere in the U.S. or Canada. I don't know if some really old ones are grandfathered in a few places, but certainly not any new ones in the last few decades, at least.


As for why I am so adamant, it's simple. Having wrong information about something as dangerous as electric power can't possibly be safer than having the RIGHT information.

Even in the context of Arboristsite, if you tell Joe Homeowner that he shouldn't mess with trees around his service drop because the lines aren't insulated, and he happens to know better, he's likely going to blow off everything else you say because you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Which might get him killed, because the truth is, you DO know what you're talking about with this stuff, but your one bad piece of information blew your credibility, and he didn't listen to the rest of your sound advice.

And I know you don't want that to happen.

 

[clearance]

Mark, I was trained by linesmen, it is not considered insulation, just weather protection. I have handled it, but it is against the rules, here and apparently in the U.S.. Why are you so adament about this? And how do you figure that the guys that work around high and low voltage all the time should believe an armchair quarterback like you over linemen?

.

 

[diltree]

not trying too step on any body's toes here, but who do you work for because if they have told you that the "insulation" will keep you safe from being killed and that because the wire is "insulated" means you can touch it then they are wrong, keep thinking that you can't get hurt by a line that is "insulated" and you might just get bit pretty dang bad or killed, the power company's also have coated primary wires, would you grab one of those? I have seen 24,000 volt lines "insulated" lay on the ground burn and blows chunks of asphalt and concrete up as bigs as 20 inches in diameter and 2 to 3 feet deep so if that was "insulated" then why did it do that? also, when I was in Louisiana after Katrina there was a guy killed by a so called "insulate" wire.

Did you read this entire thread? I hope you didn't, because if you did this post is insane.....as a qualified line trimmer you should consider no wires "insulated" under no circumstances...ever!

 

[diltree]

.

Well said

 

[diltree]

Mark,

You know What...we are not on the same page, and that is OK. I can only tell this forum what we have taught our line trimmers for the past 50 years with an incredible rate of success. I believe in our teachings referring to electricity and trimming and I stand by our perception. I respect you , but I'm very sorry you disagree with my point of view. I believe the things I have said will lead only to safe work practices around charged wires. There is a chance you know more about electricity then myself. Still, There is no doubt in my mind that you have never slipped a 20' piece down and past the Hendrix, or jumped a head over the open three phase and into the road. You may have heard a transformer blow; but never have had one blow because of the piece you had just freshly cut. You may be able to read some web sites and perhaps sympathize with the trade, but you will never empathize with the stress and grave reality of working with live wires. In my opinion, there is no such thing as insulated wire and anyone working for my company will treat all lines as if they are live!

 

[ddhlakebound]

Good thread gone to crap....

I hope you all realize you are really arguing over the PERCEPTION of insulation.

Is it insulated?

Yes, the phases are at least insulated from each other, or the circuit would blow.

Can we consider it insulated?

No, because the wires we work around daily could have failures in the insulation which have not caused the circuit to blow, and direct or indirect contact could result in injury or death.

Bottom line....Let line clearance trimmers do the trimming around power, because they know you can NEVER consider any line insulated, wether it is or not.

Now, will everybody please have a coke and a smile?

 

[diltree]

I hope you all realize you are really arguing over the PERCEPTION of insulation.

Is it insulated?

Yes, the phases are at least insulated from each other, or the circuit would blow.

Can we consider it insulated?

No, because the wires we work around daily could have failures in the insulation which have not caused the circuit to blow, and direct or indirect contact could result in injury or death.

Bottom line....Let line clearance trimmers do the trimming around power, because they know you can NEVER consider any line insulated, wether it is or not.

Now, will everybody please have a coke and a smile?

Thats my point....Thank You

 

[ropensaddle]

DC? DC.....:bang:

I know of only 2 DC systems that are still operational in the NE. They are both privately owned, used for specific old machines, come out of their own substations, and are less than 500' runs.

I find it hard to eblieve you have ever trimmed around DC. Whole differnt set of rules with that animal!

That was explaining how little of current it
takes to kill a human and read it in a safety manual I have no idea where they got the info! I never said any thing of working on dc power

 

[ropensaddle]

No you DO NOT!!! This is Utility specific. I have worked it both ways....on the other side of the tree. I am VERY comfy in either situation. The neutral grounds out just as well as the ground rod.

You have obviously been brain washed by the utility you spent the most time at. I have worked every state on the East Coast. EVRYWHERE is diferent. They are all right, but different. to say one method is the absolute best is a travesty!

You may be right, It was an osha meeting which most of the material was
on scaffolds and extension cords which we thought was strange! The
line was powered by a toy train transformer and the fact that the line
lit the bulb is enough to get my vote! As I will not work on downed lines
any other way!!!!!!!! What about when some crackhead stole
the ground off pole or have been damaged I prefer knowing
the I didn't execute an innocent fellow worker over a ten minute procedure.

 

[ropensaddle]

Dont forget...........

Secondaries are more dangerous to work around. They are not fused/trippable like primaries. They keep burning until the transformer goe up or the primary cutout blows. Which can be quite some time.

What about 500kv
it runs non grounded and arcs but I agree because people seem to think
they're less deadly and that can be a fatal mistake.

 

[clearance]

What about 500kv
it runs non grounded and arcs but I agree because people seem to think
they're less deadly and that can be a fatal mistake.

Not anyone with a brain in thier head. You ever work beside a 500 line? I like it when you push off blocks, like over 30ft. from the line and you get jolted every time. I really like the buzz in the air and the crackling sounds when it is wet outside.

 

[ropensaddle]

Not anyone with a brain in thier head. You ever work beside a 500 line? I like it when you push off blocks, like over 30ft. from the line and you get jolted every time. I really like the buzz in the air and the crackling sounds when it is wet outside.

Yes I have worked around the stuff and is definitely an experience
I missed out on the jolting part!!!! I have felt hair stand and had dees
tingle me wild stuff!

 

[BostonBull]

Clearance, you know I take this seriously, you've seen what I've posted about standing waves, etc.

On this subject I've posted plenty of links. "Lineman say..." doesn't mean squat when I've posted links to manufacturers specifications and utility company websites that all call this stuff insulated.

I don't know why linemen working in the industry are so badly informed, but apparently they are. Maybe they are deliberately giving out wrong information thinking that it will make people more careful, I don't know. But it's still wrong information.

Check the NEC, check any power company website, check the links I've posted. That stuff around the triplex is insulation, NOT weather coating. Uninsulated service drops are not legal anywhere in the U.S. or Canada. I don't know if some really old ones are grandfathered in a few places, but certainly not any new ones in the last few decades, at least.


As for why I am so adamant, it's simple. Having wrong information about something as dangerous as electric power can't possibly be safer than having the RIGHT information.

Even in the context of Arboristsite, if you tell Joe Homeowner that he shouldn't mess with trees around his service drop because the lines aren't insulated, and he happens to know better, he's likely going to blow off everything else you say because you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Which might get him killed, because the truth is, you DO know what you're talking about with this stuff, but your one bad piece of information blew your credibility, and he didn't listen to the rest of your sound advice.

And I know you don't want that to happen.

Your a Pompous POS! I hope a linesman finds you and tells you exactly how he feels! Manufacturers HAVE to say that! You are talking about aerial CABLES, dumby. We are NOT! Find me the manufacturrs website oft "typical" aerial wire, and show me the specs on that.

Compare apples to apples. You love to over analyze things and get your .02 in s you can feel good about yourself.

Stick to the topic on hand.

Aerial CABLES HAVE to be insulated AND have a weather protction coating on them, by NEC law.

Aerial WIRE only has to have a thin weather jacket on it, which witht he slightest bit of rubbing wears off and the Linesman are out putting it back out. Happens everyday with the utility I work with, and thats only 1 small town.


And again provide proof of use of those big money aerial cables down where you are or in FL, as Sandard installs.......you wont be able to because NO utility installs them as standard. Fujikara is a highly pecialized CABLE manufacturer.

 

[BostonBull]

What about 500kv
it runs non grounded and arcs but I agree because people seem to think
they're less deadly and that can be a fatal mistake.

We are talking about distribution in this thread not TRANSMISSION lines. If anyone is pulling hangers off tranni lines with poles they have a whole new set of problems.

When you work anything above 115KV you either wear an induction suit and become part of the phase, or you stand in a bucket or helicopter and bare hand the stuff, NO rubber wil protect you from this voltage.

 

[BostonBull]

Mark

We are arguing electrical THEORY here, whuch is bad. Its like arguing religion. Noone knows for sure but everyone may be right.

Noone knows EXACTLY how electricity works, thats why its called electrical THEORY.

 

[046]

this thread is a good example of why information on AS is not reliable.
It's hard to tell what's right from what will get you killed.

no clue how drops are done where you're at. but house drops around here is exactly as boston bull described. depending upon age... wire covering may be completely intact or partially gone with bare copper showing.

proper way to handle drops is to assume wire covering (if any) has no insulation value. or in other words stay away from lines period and call your power company for a free wire drop.

back to the if you have to ask.... don't!
play it safe and call the power company.

 

[OTG BOSTON]

And how do you figure that the guys that work around high and low voltage all the time should believe an armchair quarterback like you over linemen?

Mark,

Still, There is no doubt in my mind that you have never slipped a 20' piece down and past the Hendrix, or jumped a head over the open three phase and into the road. You may have heard a transformer blow; but never have had one blow because of the piece you had just freshly cut. QUOTE]

Best posts on this thread, perfect examples of guys with experience versus a guy with a lot of time on his hands. IMHO it is not worth argueing about all this on arb101, anyone who could benefit would just be more confused. That is if they spent all the time it takes to read those long winded posts.......

 

[diltree]

this thread is a good example of why information on AS is not reliable.
It's hard to tell what's right from what will get you killed. .

There is reliable information on this site. You have guys posting that are veteran CAs, MCAs, Board Certified master arborists, qualified line trimmers, People from families that have been in this business for generations, guys that have a wealth of knowledge and experience.

You just have to weed out the guys that really don't have a clew, listen to the consensus of the professionals......

 

[OTG BOSTON]

There is reliable information on this site. You have guys posting that are veteran CAs, MCAs, Board Certified master arborists, qualified line trimmers, People from families that have been in this business for generations, guys that have a wealth of knowledge and experience.

You just have to weed out the guys that really don't have a clew, listen to the consensus of the professionals......

well said, and more direct than my last post