Private land harvest questions

[Saiso]

Hello everyone!
Before we start, I’m located in NB, Canada so I understand there’s a lot of variances in the answers to my questions but I would still like some insight.

My family and I currently live off grid in a small cabin on 100 acres. We are planning our future homestead area and realistically would have to fall into some money for us to comfortably build our desired home.

Long story short..
We are hoping to harvest some of our acreage on our second lot (50 acres). The access is fine. We considered a CC but would prefer 2-3 strip cuts across the lot. This would probably get done through someone private with machinery I’m guessing? We have big SW such as balsam fir and spruce there and also decent size firewood (mostly red maple). Any tolerant HW and EWP would not be cut (there wouldn’t be enough worth their work)

How big of an area is normally worth their time? Does this depend on what kind of machinery someone has? Does a CC offer a much greater income than strip cuts? Realistically, how much money would a private landowner like myself make if all I do is flag the appropriated areas to be cut? Am I responsible for anything safety wise or anything else?

I’m also in touch with friends at work so hopefully soon I’ll have LIDAR information, volumes, dimensions, etc that should facilitate whether we do strips, CC, or a combination of both?

We don’t want to feel like we’re cutting all of our land (we love trees, I’m a forest ranger and we live off grid after all) but understand that a prescribed cut isn’t bad and we would like to make some money to help with our situation.

Thank you!

 

[northmanlogging]

Realistically you need to talk to someone from your area that understands your markets and regulations.

But a good contractor should only need a permit and the proper areas flagged, they will be saddled with everything else (laws vary as to who's responsible for safety... but should be on them)

As for profit? It's all dependent on your market

 

[bitzer]

Honestly you are probably looking at pulp stumpage prices. Anywhere from $5-$50/cord depending on your markets is what you the landowner might make. Northy pretty much nailed the rest. Why not select cut the whole thing unless it needs clearing? There's a prescription for everything.

 

[madhatte]

I'm curious about your LiDAR data. Raw point cloud? CHM? DEM? Derived hillshade? Will you be analyzing the data yourself, or will somebody else be? Who did the flight, and how much did it cost? What's the resolution?

I, uh, get pretty jazzed about new datasets, sorry not sorry.

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

Realistically you need to talk to someone from your area that understands your markets and regulations.

But a good contractor should only need a permit and the proper areas flagged, they will be saddled with everything else (laws vary as to who's responsible for safety... but should be on them)

As for profit? It's all dependent on your market

Permit? Never heard of anything like that.

Here if it's private land, can cut it all.

 

[Saiso]

Selective cutting may

I'm curious about your LiDAR data. Raw point cloud? CHM? DEM? Derived hillshade? Will you be analyzing the data yourself, or will somebody else be? Who did the flight, and how much did it cost? What's the resolution?

I, uh, get pretty jazzed about new datasets, sorry not sorry.

Flown by the province I’m guessing? I’m not too familiar with LIDAR myself as it is not our “mandate” so I’ll be getting assistance through people at work (mostly foresters). We have access to many GIS files through work so, some LIDAR. In the past, he was able to formulate some data in no time with volumes and also showing me where the bigger stuff “should” be. This would only help us determine whether we do strips, CC or a combination of both. I would go out in the field and walk the proposed areas to see how accurate LIDAR was.

Thanks!

 

[madhatte]

Ask your GIS guy if he has a derived layer for basal area. If he does, you can directly measure volume by the following equation in GIS using raster math functions:

((Area (trees)/Area (land)) * (Volume (trees) [this ratio is known as Basal Area, or BA]/Basal Area (trees)) [this ratio is known as volume-to-basal-area, or VBAR] )/Area (land) = Volume

Height = CHM-DEM where [CHM is the highest elevation value for a given XY coordinate] and [DEM is the lowest elevation value for the same XY coordinate] (that is, highest minus lowest is how high the thing is)

VBAR = Height * (local correction factor, here for DF it's pretty close to 2, I can steer you to the primary references if you're interested)
BA is the hardest LiDAR-derived metric to rasterize, but it's worth it because it has lots of applications.

so in GIS, using raster math

VBAR * BA
________ = Volume

A

In ArcGIS, you can do this most easily by using the summary statistics from the layer in question. I haven't done this analysis in QGIS yet so I don't know the shortcuts but since QGIS is largely derived from GRASS which is well known for being super powerful for raster analysis, I have no doubt that it can do the same analysis.

Apologies if this got way nerdy way quick, I just want to know that this set of instructions is on the internet somewhere as I'm not an academic and you can't look my work up on JSTOR.

Please feel free to PM me here any time about this stuff and I will either answer your questions or find somebody who can.

 

[Saiso]

Ask your GIS guy if he has a derived layer for basal area. If he does, you can directly measure volume by the following equation in GIS using raster math functions:

((Area (trees)/Area (land)) * (Volume (trees) [this ratio is known as Basal Area, or BA]/Basal Area (trees)) [this ratio is known as volume-to-basal-area, or VBAR] )/Area (land) = Volume

Height = CHM-DEM where [CHM is the highest elevation value for a given XY coordinate] and [DEM is the lowest elevation value for the same XY coordinate] (that is, highest minus lowest is how high the thing is)

VBAR = Height * (local correction factor, here for DF it's pretty close to 2, I can steer you to the primary references if you're interested)
BA is the hardest LiDAR-derived metric to rasterize, but it's worth it because it has lots of applications.

so in GIS, using raster math

VBAR * BA
________ = Volume

A

In ArcGIS, you can do this most easily by using the summary statistics from the layer in question. I haven't done this analysis in QGIS yet so I don't know the shortcuts but since QGIS is largely derived from GRASS which is well known for being super powerful for raster analysis, I have no doubt that it can do the same analysis.

Apologies if this got way nerdy way quick, I just want to know that this set of instructions is on the internet somewhere as I'm not an academic and you can't look my work up on JSTOR.

Please feel free to PM me here any time about this stuff and I will either answer your questions or find somebody who can.

Wow, you’re a genius haha.
I’ll definitely bring up this post to my GIS guys see if they can relate and follow your instructions.

I’m hoping he replies to my email first and then my family and I can stop in to do some prep work.

I’m currently on a temporarily parental leave, otherwise I would have done some prep work before.

Thank you for your replies everyone

 

[madhatte]

Using that method, I can usually get within about 20% of scaled volume. I've come up half or double scaled, but even with that much error, it's still within an order of magnitude, which is more than adequate for a five-minute estimate done at my desk.

 

[northmanlogging]

Permit? Never heard of anything like that.

Here if it's private land, can cut it all.

Canada is looking better and better...

The state controls everything down here

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

Canada is looking better and better...

The state controls everything down here

AK is sort of the last "free" state for most things I suppose. Most Alaska are pretty anti-.gov. Let the .gov handle a few things to keep basic order and rule but other than that, they don't need their fingers in anything else.

I grew up in Maine, most of the family is still there. My brother has ~100 ares, was saying that he would not be able to to just go in an cut it all down unless it was to be turned into farmland. Would have to file a logging/land use permit and go from there. Typically can cut something like 50-60% I believe (I may be wrong about that). Either way I was floored at the b/s. Here for the most part, if it's your land, especially if not in the city or suburbs, you can do what you want.

 

[Saiso]

AK is sort of the last "free" state for most things I suppose. Most Alaska are pretty anti-.gov. Let the .gov handle a few things to keep basic order and rule but other than that, they don't need their fingers in anything else.

I grew up in Maine, most of the family is still there. My brother has ~100 ares, was saying that he would not be able to to just go in an cut it all down unless it was to be turned into farmland. Would have to file a logging/land use permit and go from there. Typically can cut something like 50-60% I believe (I may be wrong about that). Either way I was floored at the b/s. Here for the most part, if it's your land, especially if not in the city or suburbs, you can do what you want.

I think that’s what it is here in NB, Canada. I’ve never cut any big acreage on my land but have seen other private land operations and many of them are big CC’s with nothing done after.

 

[bitzer]

Here it can go county to county. You do have to file a cutting notice with the county before a timber sale stateswide(you're supposed to anyway). Some counties you can slick it right off and some have really goofy rules. Usually the closer you get to urban areas the worse it is.

 

[Skeans]

Oregon we need a permit for the cutting then one for power equipment use then if there’s creeks ect a plan has to be drawn out to protect them. This permit number is what we use for a purchase order with the mill as well.


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[Saiso]

Yeah, we issue work permits if there’s 2 or more workers and if any large machinery. I’ll get one done for myself even if I’ll be only one cutting with a chainsaw. They’re free, and saves your butt from any complication.

 

[grizz55chev]

I’m in California, where all permits have their origins.

 

[ArtB]

The state controls everything down here

No joke. Even worse if in or near incorporated area. My house is on 4 acres 1 block outside city limits. A block farther north inside city, and I'd be limited to cutting 6 trees a year larger th;an 6" DBH! More than that inside city limits takes a city council resolution which is about impossible (city motto is 'tree city btw") - or a development permit and $50k 'fees' to cram 30 houses on the site. Last time there was an annexation vote in the area (it failed) I cut down 50 trees the week before. I let a Christmas tree planting get away from me 20 years ago so have close to 600 trees now bigger than 6". Will be busy beaver thinning if there is another annexation vote.

 

[Saiso]

No joke. Even worse if in or near incorporated area. My house is on 4 acres 1 block outside city limits. A block farther north inside city, and I'd be limited to cutting 6 trees a year larger th;an 6" DBH! More than that inside city limits takes a city council resolution which is about impossible (city motto is 'tree city btw") - or a development permit and $50k 'fees' to cram 30 houses on the site. Last time there was an annexation vote in the area (it failed) I cut down 50 trees the week before. I let a Christmas tree planting get away from me 20 years ago so have close to 600 trees now bigger than 6". Will be busy beaver thinning if there is another annexation vote.

Wow... Canada is awesome

 

[Little Al]

As said in posts#2/3 If you divide the area & coppice sections you can return & re harvest with knowledge you can harvest from the same trees for a 100 years or more

 

[Woody912]

As said in posts#2/3 If you divide the area & coppice sections you can return & re harvest with knowledge you can harvest from the same trees for a 100 years or more

For some reason coppice farming is not very successful here, very high % of hollow trees has been my observation