Professional Cabling in Large Trees

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jomoco

jomoco

Tree Freak
Joined
Oct 4, 2006
Messages
16,184
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Location
San Diego CA
I have about 20K worth of cabling to do before xmas this year in less than 5 trees.

These are large historic trees here in San Diego, the bulk of which are repairing amateurs screw ups in trees that should never have been cabled in the first place. But as all journeymen know, once a tree has been cabled for more than 5 years, removing that cable becomes a liability no sane arborist will risk.

The bulk of this cabling will be in two giant torrey pines right on the beach here in PB. The cables were installed by amateurs decades ago improperly, the angles of cable to hardware were so far off that the prevailing ocean breeze torqued and twisted the main leaders to the point that one of them failed. This high traffic pedestrian area of beach boardwalk being subject to 24 inch lateral branch failure from these two giants are what led to my involvement on this project.

I am somewhat astonished that the HOA is willing to pay me 15K to cable these trees properly when removing them with a 120 ton hydrocrane would only cost 13K.

I want to video this contract along with another similar cabling contract involving an historic moreton bay fig with a time lapse video camera on a tripod.

Any suggestions on the best camera to video these cabling jobs with would be appreciated. I won't be starting till mid november.

Any suggestions Ekka or others?

Why would a cabler need a Hobb's device in the contracts described above?

jomoco
 
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Why don't you contact a local college and ask for an instructor pertaining to video recording - maybe get a referral of a student who can do it for a project. Doubt they would send a bozo if you say it's got to be done decent. And they probably would not need to be there all day every day when you are.

One idea anyhow.

Or are you thinking helmet cam too?

Is one of these a huge sprawling fig I've seen in imags for San Diego ??

There are some groovy trees down there. I walked around there, part of L.A. and also the area in between which I recall may have called Oceanside - yes?
 
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Ummm...what if you need to take some sag out of a limb in order to achieve proper tension on the cable, or make the install easier? If it's a large limb, a GRCS or Hobbs would be just the ticket...quick and easy to set up as well.

Jomoco, will you be installing static or dynamic? Either way, I hope you'll consider some of the new systems, which employ static hi-mod lines, if static is the choice. Of course, these are non invasive as well.

I'd love to come help, or record the event..but work is way too busy.

For still photography, there's a device called an intervalometer, that will take a series of shots over a specified time span, at your chosen intervals. I don't know if the same could be made to work for video.

Alternatively, get a Canon VF-10 (I think that's the model) Get several 16 gig SD cards, an extra battery, and set it up on a tripod.

But, as a photographer, i know that the best results will be if the camera and photographer/videographer is mobile. The ability to shoot from many perspectives, including in the tree with ya (or from a bucket or another tree) is key.

I'm in the market for a videocam, and think that the latest flash memory based camcorders are the cat's meow. That Canon can be had for about $700, and shoots 1080P HD video. I'm also planned to soon get a helmet cam, and will be hard pressed to find anything that measures up to the Vio POV-1, which is $679.

Of course, I'm a gear junkie, and will also be getting a Canon 5D Mkll--don't know when, as I haven't preordered one (They aren't even due in stores till late Nov) Amazing camera, 21.1 mp and it shoots 1080P vid as well-the first SLR to do so, and just the 2nd to shoot video of any kind. The thought of shooting vid through my expensive Canon LD glass is mouthwatering.
 
I'd take a look at some of Reg's video work. He uses a VIO-POV.1 I just received my B&H (pro camera/video store in NYC) catalog this week. They had a few models listed. I think most were in the $300 range, and the POV.1 was $700. But from all the reviews I have seen, the POV.1 is "the" helmet cam to get. I was thinking of the cam as a quick and easy way to document close up portions of what you found and what you did. Much easier than taking a P&S camera to document. Reg's video is slick in that he switches between the different cameras fairly effectively.

Good luck on the job! I hope it goes well.

I was typing when rbtree posted, I think I am in sync with his comments.
 
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jomoco said:
I am somewhat astonished that the HOA is willing to pay me 15K to cable these trees properly when removing them with a 120 ton hydrocrane would only cost 13K.
Click to expand...
So for 2k they get to retain the trees' contributions with greatly reduced risk. Sounds like a bargain. :clap:
 
treeseer said:
So for 2k they get to retain the trees' contributions with greatly reduced risk. Sounds like a bargain. :clap:
Click to expand...

Or 2k more to prolong thier life, at the risk of a human life in the future. Let us hope that someone does not say in the future that it would have only cost 13k to save a life, human that is.
 
Uh-oh, a life of tree vs. life and property of humans war.....

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
 
Or 2k more to prolong thier life, at the risk of a human life in the future. Let us hope that someone does not say in the future that it would have only cost 13k to save a life, human that is.
Click to expand...

Apparently all is not forgotten...:poke: awaiting the rockets red glare

<---Check her out, she thinks this is funny hiding behind those Bug Eyez.

I remain :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
 
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rbtree said:
Ummm...what if you need to take some sag out of a limb in order to achieve proper tension on the cable, or make the install easier? If it's a large limb, a GRCS or Hobbs would be just the ticket...quick and easy to set up as well.

Jomoco, will you be installing static or dynamic? Either way, I hope you'll consider some of the new systems, which employ static hi-mod lines, if static is the choice. Of course, these are non invasive as well.

I'd love to come help, or record the event..but work is way too busy.

For still photography, there's a device called an intervalometer, that will take a series of shots over a specified time span, at your chosen intervals. I don't know if the same could be made to work for video.

Alternatively, get a Canon VF-10 (I think that's the model) Get several 16 gig SD cards, an extra battery, and set it up on a tripod.

But, as a photographer, i know that the best results will be if the camera and photographer/videographer is mobile. The ability to shoot from many perspectives, including in the tree with ya (or from a bucket or another tree) is key.

I'm in the market for a videocam, and think that the latest flash memory based camcorders are the cat's meow. That Canon can be had for about $700, and shoots 1080P HD video. I'm also planned to soon get a helmet cam, and will be hard pressed to find anything that measures up to the Vio POV-1, which is $679.

Of course, I'm a gear junkie, and will also be getting a Canon 5D Mkll--don't know when, as I haven't preordered one (They aren't even due in stores till late Nov) Amazing camera, 21.1 mp and it shoots 1080P vid as well-the first SLR to do so, and just the 2nd to shoot video of any kind. The thought of shooting vid through my expensive Canon LD glass is mouthwatering.
Click to expand...

I'm very oldschool about my cabling RB, 7strand with tree grips, drop forged galvinized through bolts.

The two torreys will get a total of 22 cables, 7 new and 15 existing cables reolaced, some of them with an incredible amount of tension on them, which is why I'll be using a Hobb's and leverage to replace them safely.

The hardest part of cabling in my opinion is getting the cable and bolt angles drilled perfectly true in a straight line.

I've been thinking about some kind of attachable drill jig to get a 1/4 inch pilot hole about 8 inches deep and perfectly true to the cable angle and dead center on the leader being cabled.

I may go with the helmet cam if it's only 700 bucks and not too bulky or fragile.

Should be an interesting job in that these highrise condos were originally built around these torrey pines which now tower over each bldg's roof.

One is truly massive and has a 5 foot DBH.

I intend to post pics and video of this job as it progresses in this thread.

Thanks guys.

jomoco
 
high cables...hand tight

I AM an EHS cable/through bolt kind of guy too..

I AM also pretty anal about getting the holes drilled straight in line with the cable. That is a detaill I take very seriously as it is not just a cable that is effected. It is the life of the tree and the potential damage to human life and property. I've seen world class climbers drill nearly 45 degrees off and consider that acceptable.

Are you climbing solo... It is always easier to get the holes straight when two climbers are both in place and can eyeball the angle of the drill for each other. Two climbers also make it a lot easier to get the cables put in high. That is another thing I AM pretty anal about. I try to exceed 2/3 the height from union to tips, sometimes going quite a bit higher. The leverage is just so much better with even a few extra feet in height.

15K for 22 cables is quite a project.. I like to get 225-300 per cable and occasionally get 400 for really big trees. So good on ya for getting that kind of money... How many days are you thinking? I'd set up two climber each with their own drill and cable bag, then use a mini throw line to fish the cable. With a system like that, I doubt there are any 22 cables that Jim Roach and his climbing partner would need more than 2 days to get right.

Also one question... why replace cables? Existing cables are almost always too low anyhow.. Why go to all the trouble? Wouldn't the trees be better off with new cables up high where they belong?

High cables... hand tight... better for the tree.. easier to instal if you use two climbers that know how to climb.

Good luck on the project...
 
I will watch it, 15k for 22 cables would be unheard of here though. Most people cringe at 250.00 per cable in N.Y.
 
murphy4trees said:
I AM an EHS cable/through bolt kind of guy too..

I AM also pretty anal about getting the holes drilled straight in line with the cable. That is a detaill I take very seriously as it is not just a cable that is effected. It is the life of the tree and the potential damage to human life and property. I've seen world class climbers drill nearly 45 degrees off and consider that acceptable.

Are you climbing solo... It is always easier to get the holes straight when two climbers are both in place and can eyeball the angle of the drill for each other. Two climbers also make it a lot easier to get the cables put in high. That is another thing I AM pretty anal about. I try to exceed 2/3 the height from union to tips, sometimes going quite a bit higher. The leverage is just so much better with even a few extra feet in height.

15K for 22 cables is quite a project.. I like to get 225-300 per cable and occasionally get 400 for really big trees. So good on ya for getting that kind of money... How many days are you thinking? I'd set up two climber each with their own drill and cable bag, then use a mini throw line to fish the cable. With a system like that, I doubt there are any 22 cables that Jim Roach and his climbing partner would need more than 2 days to get right.

Also one question... why replace cables? Existing cables are almost always too low anyhow.. Why go to all the trouble? Wouldn't the trees be better off with new cables up high where they belong?

High cables... hand tight... better for the tree.. easier to instal if you use two climbers that know how to climb.

Good luck on the project...
Click to expand...

You put your finger on exactly how I became involved in this cabling challenge.

What you say about leaving the old cables intact is very true Murph, but only if those old cables were properly installed with true angles.

I got the call on this job after one of the cabled 2 foot dia leaders on the largest torrey failed, right over the beach boardwalk and pool area of that bldg. They wanted to know why the leader failed, and what the liabilities were for both trees in the longterm.

After inspecting the trees from the ground, it was very obvious to me what the problem was, amateur cabling, decades old, with almost every dang cable out of true with the through bolt angles. With the daily onshore winds nailing these out of angle cables, the leader has no choice but to twist towards true alignment everytime a wind of sufficient force hits them each day. Over time this twisting inevitably leads to structural failure of the improperly cabled leader leader.

After getting consults and bids from the top tree firms, I was somewhat shocked to find that mine was chosen despite being the most expensive. It turns out that every other bid and recommendation was for removal of the trees with a large crane. The HOA board wanted these old giant historic torrey pines saved if humanly possible.

I charged them big bucks about 7 months ago to climb each tree, inspect each cable, and write a full report on each tree with detailed recommendations.

Believe it or not, the idiot that cabled the laterals on the smaller of the trees used friggin lags! In a softwood pine! What an idiot! And to make matters worse, when I checked the managers records on the many firms that had installed these bogus cables over the years, one of my big euc heroes from the 70's had installed atleast 6 cables! A friend and colleague. I immediately called him and told him straight up that someone in his company had screwed up. To my relief, it was not him but one of his amateur climbers that installed the bogus cables, so I ragged him about his responsibilities as a business owner and let it go.

Now you can understand why I am charging premium coin to get these magnificent trees finally cabled professionally. I intend to take my time and do it right, with two helpers below me to maintain such a large safety zone.

I figured about 10 work days, including deadwooding and new cables.

Any of you guys ever rod an old crossover together and have it meld together completely enough to hide the hardware inside?

jomoco
 
jomoco said:
Any of you guys ever rod an old crossover together and have it meld together completely enough to hide the hardware inside?

jomoco
Click to expand...

I've not been doing it long enough. Maybe a few with eye bolts getting engulfed.

The hardest part of cabling in my opinion is getting the cable and bolt angles drilled perfectly true in a straight line.
Click to expand...

Attach a laser pointer to some rod, drill the first hole and insert the rod and the laser site will tell you where to drill. then when the drillman starts the hole, he gets the "dot" on the back of the drill to keep it all inline.

Someone inventive enough should be able to make a plug for the drill hole that will be even more accurate, just like a breach mount laser siting kit for firearms.
 
John Paul Sanborn said:
I've not been doing it long enough. Maybe a few with eye bolts getting engulfed.



Attach a laser pointer to some rod, drill the first hole and insert the rod and the laser site will tell you where to drill. then when the drillman starts the hole, he gets the "dot" on the back of the drill to keep it all inline.

Someone inventive enough should be able to make a plug for the drill hole that will be even more accurate, just like a breach mount laser siting kit for firearms.
Click to expand...

I'm with you JPS, I firmly believe that an attachable laser sighting pilot drill jig would be a totally marketable new arborist tool.

Are their any American drill manufacturers in the cordless market?

I can see an attachable C clamp adjustable jig, and a little 1/4 inch cordless drill punching an exact 8 inch deep pilot hole on a laser tracked tracked mechanism that slides back and forth with spring pressure.

I'd pay big bucks for a mechanism that guaranteed perfect cable alignment everytime!

jomoco
 
Great Scott!

I just figured out how to get perfect alignment with one simple tool.

Is this lucky US patent number 7?

Thanks JPS!

You're a genius!

jomoco
 
I think you are overthinking it, German Engineering vs KISS principle.

If you have a mark on the back of the drill that is in line with the axis of the bit, then you just have to keep the "dot" on that mark.

Just put my fees on my tab ;)
 
John Paul Sanborn said:
I think you are overthinking it, German Engineering vs KISS principle.

If you have a mark on the back of the drill that is in line with the axis of the bit, then you just have to keep the "dot" on that mark.

Just put my fees on my tab ;)
Click to expand...

All right JPS, you slap your's together in the next week, I'll slap together my old school non-electronic hand powered stone age one. I'll video and post my results for critical evaluation, then you can vid and post yours for a bit o the same.

Are yu game JPS?

jomoco
 

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