Propane Now Pushing $5/gal?

Arborist Forum

Help Support Arborist Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
That means you are not really heating the building with propane. You are peak shaving with propane as a back-up fuel.
Yep and one of the two hot water heaters is propane which is great during hurricanes and power outages. Have a valve where we can plumb it to the whole house if need be. Run a much smaller generator not having to heat water.
 
. Suppose you have a 50,000 BTU/Hr propane furnace that you are using to heat the house. Propane could easily be costing some households $1,500 per month to burn.

50K BTU furnace??? Must be used to heat a guard shack because if that was in a home no wonder it uses so much gas it can't keep up with the load when it is -10F outside. My house (1800sq ft)is out on the windy plains in IA with new wind turbines going up 1/8mile away. My furnace is 140K BTU 80% efficient, house t'stat set at 70F all the time, hot water (household of 6) and stove on gas as well with decent insulation/windows and I have gone through 600-700 gals of propane since end of Sept so about $225 per month. I don't think that is too bad but $1500 per month :cry: might as well go live in an Econolodge if paying that much.

Brian
 
50K BTU furnace??? Must be used to heat a guard shack because if that was in a home no wonder it uses so much gas it can't keep up with the load when it is -10F outside. My house (1800sq ft)is out on the windy plains in IA with new wind turbines going up 1/8mile away. My furnace is 140K BTU 80% efficient, house t'stat set at 70F all the time, hot water (household of 6) and stove on gas as well with decent insulation/windows and I have gone through 600-700 gals of propane since end of Sept so about $225 per month. I don't think that is too bad but $1500 per month :cry: might as well go live in an Econolodge if paying that much.

Brian
Well Brian,
Its been pretty much below -10F for two months, the 80k BTU furnace keeps the 2200sq ft house nice and warm even at -40F. Its all about building for the environment one lives in. Your 700 gallons equates to 2646 ltr of propane for my mothers house, don't even use 500l/132 gal a month.

What are you doing heating in September in Iowa?
 
Some of you guys need to grow your arms longer.

That would make it easier for you to pat yourselves on the back eh?

When the dust settles I will bet dollars to donuts there was some serious hanky panky going on in the propane industry.

Last Summer my dealer (not to blame for this fiasco) told me there was a glut of gas because of the fracking and other domestic production.

Yup $1.19 a gallon delivered, the powers that be concocted this, and are in overdrive trying to put the blame elsewhere.


Whats the old saying?

"Screw me once, shame on you, screw me twice, shame on ME"
 
I have a brand new vent free propane fire log set I was going to put in my fireplace that I got at Home Depot It's a project I've been planning for a while now . I've been waiting for the weather to warm up .. But all this lately has opened my eyes ..energy in our country is over regulated and taxable . It's going the way of healthcare . When you add more people inevitably It will be rationed and costs will spike I'm not going to be caught up with a big expense or shortage because of some phony disaster in the other side of the country that they blame that week .. After much deliberation the wife and I have decided to scrap the project and now we are putting a small EPA stove in it instead . If I'm already cutting splitting stacking wood for my furnace I might as well use the free fuel I already have instead of having a. " fake" fire and at the mercy of whatever they want to charge . There is something great and an element of freedom about burning wood to keep your family comfortable also if the power goes out I have a back up that's off grid and requires nobody from a fuel company snooping around. Plus my lab will prefer laying in front of it I think
 
download (1).jpg

I have me project for the Summer.

Something akin to the pic, but with about 5 ton more stone.

Hear tell you make one hot fire a day (perhaps two when it's sub zero) and the mass does the rest.

Them folks in really cold places with hardly any wood have been using this technology for Centuries!

Man has only been beholding to utilities for what 70-100 years?

I for one am done being backsided by them, seems every business feels it is their God given right to put their hand into your pocket eh?
 
When the dust settles I will bet dollars to donuts there was some serious hanky panky going on in the propane industry.

Last Summer my dealer (not to blame for this fiasco) told me there was a glut of gas because of the fracking and other domestic production.

Yup $1.19 a gallon delivered, the powers that be concocted this, and are in overdrive trying to put the blame elsewhere.


Whats the old saying?

"Screw me once, shame on you, screw me twice, shame on ME"
No doubt - but there must be actual supply issues before the scammers can manipulate. It is hard to game a well supplied market. And the fracking BS is just another financial bubble about to pop.
 
View attachment 331703

I have me project for the Summer.

Something akin to the pic, but with about 5 ton more stone.

Hear tell you make one hot fire a day (perhaps two when it's sub zero) and the mass does the rest.

Them folks in really cold places with hardly any wood have been using this technology for Centuries!

Man has only been beholding to utilities for what 70-100 years?

I for one am done being backsided by them, seems every business feels it is their God given right to put their hand into your pocket eh?
Yeah,

I'm going to embed 100' of 3/4 inch copper tubing in the stone mass and an old 1/2 barrel fer storage.

Probably just run a third line to the shower and tub.



Then my 1000 gallon tank will be just for (a future) generator, and the cook stove.

Me thinks with no major power outages that tank should last 5 years?

I'm looking into a small wind turbine and a couple banks of batteries.

Can you tell this has pizzed me off?

No SIR it's been on my mind for years.
 
Right now you would be lucky to find $5 propane around here, it is now pushing $6 - $7 And while were at it the firewood sellers want to jump on also Bulk 100" oak 10-12 cord truck loads went from $80 a cord to $100 a cord. Why? Diesel fuel is cheaper now than when they sold it for $80 a cord. Kick'em when there down!
 
O brother.
Right now you would be lucky to find $5 propane around here, it is now pushing $6 - $7 And while were at it the firewood sellers want to jump on also Bulk 100" oak 10-12 cord truck loads went from $80 a cord to $100 a cord. Why? Diesel fuel is cheaper now than when they sold it for $80 a cord. Kick'em when there down!

Did any one take economics??? Supply and demand.

Be careful what you wish for. If you want market regulation don't cry to me when they take freedoms from you. If your free then you are free to succeed and free to fail. The worst phrase one could hear is "hello we are from the government and we are here to help "

Don't like winter propane prices. But more tank and store it.

Don't like price of a chord of wood? Cut your own/buy your own wood lot! Buy your wood like many others at the low of season not the peak!

Don't like the amount of energy your house uses ? Insulate, weatherproof, or move to a smaller house/milder climate.

My products and my labor is priced what the market will bear and I am sure yours is to so don't be hypocritical when other do the same. Don't ask for the government to knock the other guy down because your poo stinks to and they will knock every one down!

Stepping down off of my soap box.
We now return you to your previous banter.
 
Right now you would be lucky to find $5 propane around here, it is now pushing $6 - $7 And while were at it the firewood sellers want to jump on also Bulk 100" oak 10 cord truck loads went from $80 a cord to $100 a cord.
O brother.


Did any one take economics??? Supply and demand.

Be careful what you wish for. If you want market regulation don't cry to me when they take freedoms from you. If your free then you are free to succeed and free to fail. The worst phrase one could hear is "hello we are from the government and we are here to help "

Don't like winter propane prices. But more tank and store it.

Don't like price of a chord of wood? Cut your own/buy your own wood lot! Buy your wood like many others at the low of season not the peak!

Don't like the amount of energy your house uses ? Insulate, weatherproof, or move to a smaller house/milder climate.

My products and my labor is priced what the market will bear and I am sure yours is to so don't be hypocritical when other do the same. Don't ask for the government to knock the other guy down because your poo stinks to and they will knock every one down!

Stepping down off of my soap box.
We now return you to your previous banter.

Whats your problem? get out of the wrong side of the bed? I was just stating the facts. supply and demand? There is no wood shortage here. Yes I will cut my own until the price goes down. And what was I wishing for lower prices? That automaticly means the government needs to step in and regulate wood prices? :dizzy:
 
Not a wood shortage, but nominally the same number of wood suppliers and an increase in demand because of the cold weather.
 
I bet you anything the guys out in the woods doing the actual cutting didn't get a raise. I don't like it when people pray on others out of fear, with things a person needs to survive like heat. Sure they get away with charging more people are afraid they won't be able to afford a refill of propane, renters need cod. or people are afraid they will run out of wood. I just don't think raising prices on fear is the right thing to do. A little blood in the water and the sharks come swarming.
 
I bet you anything the guys out in the woods doing the actual cutting didn't get a raise. I don't like it when people pray on others out of fear, with things a person needs to survive like heat. Sure they get away with charging more people are afraid they won't be able to afford a refill of propane, renters need cod. or people are afraid they will run out of wood. I just don't think raising prices on fear is the right thing to do. A little blood in the water and the sharks come swarming.

On the other side of the coin, when propane was $2 with very little profit do you think anyone paid extra just to "help out"? Kind of like farming, you take advantage of the good years so you have cushion to ride out the bad ones. I worked in the steel biz for a while, you better make money when supply is tight because when the market is slack you're just trying to keep the lights on
 
Whats your problem? get out of the wrong side of the bed? I was just stating the facts. supply and demand? There is no wood shortage here. Yes I will cut my own until the price goes down. And what was I wishing for lower prices? That automaticly means the government needs to step in and regulate wood prices? :dizzy:

Let me apologize first, most of my post was not directed directly and entirely towards you Coldfront.

What I was trying to get at with regulation is that many want the government to punish the propane industry and regulate it. Problem is the government would not regulate just propane but ALL heating fuels. The customer is who usually pays for the regulation.

Fear or lack of causes nearly all markets forces. Say a man is an employee at a small business and is a significant reason for the business success. The owner would/should pay well if the employee is exceptional as he would "fear" the employee would leave for more money and couldn't be replaced.

A lousy employee wouldn't get a pay raise as the owner has no fear of replacing them.

From the employees point of view. If I have excellent skills and have no fear that I could find good pay I would demand a pay raise or take my skills down the road.

A really bad employee would keep quiet as he would fear finding another job.

The other 80% of employees are somewhere in between.

Just one example.

You make statements such as how the guys cutting in the woods didn't get a raise. So what? Maybe prices have been low (have been around here) and this is a chance for the business owner to make some money. Maybe he had just be scraping by. Maybe his little girl has cancer. Maybe he is just greedy. SO What. It makes me sick to hear people complain about what they don't know about and don't want to do something for themselves about it.
 
energy in our country is over regulated and taxable .

That's not the problem here.

Commodity future markets used to limit speculators.

Commodity futures have a legitimate purpose to financially hedge both producers and consumers. (And please don't confuse old fashion hedging with the modern rip-off "hedge funds"). Producers and distributors want to know they can sell their stuff in the future in order to know how much to invest, go to the bankers for loans, etc. They're willing to sell for a bit less then they might otherwise get in exchange for the guaranteed sale. Consumers want to know how much they'll pay, so they pay a premium over what they might otherwise have to pay in order to guarantee the supply.

Commodity markets used to allow a limited amount of speculation -- the proverbial grease on the skids -- to help make the market and cover periods of temporary mis-match between ultimate sellers and buyers. The producers and consumers who originally set up these markets knew it was important to limit speculation, so they enforced it through their own exchange rules.

In the 1990s, financial speculators gained control of the various exchange boards and convinced their fellow CEOs, who were appointed by boards they all served on, to agree to the changes that eliminated speculation caps.

Now the investment banks could come in with billions of dollars -- they could effectively corner the market by buying futures from suppliers, and sitting on them until consumers were forced to pay what they wanted. The banks had the money and created inflation across many commodity markets whether it was grain or oil.

(Not that government policies sometimes made it worse, hello Ethanol...but ethanol doesn't explain the rise in things like wheat prices).

Today with the Democrats in charge and the Commodity Futures Trading Commission making noise about using it's existing legal powers to limit speculation, the banks are buying warehouse and distribution companies so they can claim to be market makers with a legitimate interest and capability to take physical delivery and use the goods...and thus not subject to rules for speculators.

The process has been increased by Quantitative Easing which has pumped a couple trillion with a tee dollars into the banks, which they haven't loaned out as some hoped...but kept on their own books. How? Well, doing things like speculating on commodity futures.

They're not contributing anything worthwhile to this market -- they simply have the cash to buy the futures from the producers before anyone else can get the finances together to do so, then they have the resources to sit on it until the consumers agree to pay their price.

There are no meaningful production or distribution issues here. The weather is worse than usual but not enough to justify what we're seeing. It's the financial middlemen here messing around and laughing all the way to the bank.

Used to be when you had the likes of Houston Natural Gas and they got cute with financial shenanigans (and rename themselves Enron), eventually the malfeasance caught up to you and you went out of business. Now the banks do it directly, we declare them too big to fail, and pay them to keep screwing us over as long as they pay fines every few weeks to make it look like they're being regulated.
 
I have come to appreciate the value of good windows and good insulation . Looking at various heating forums you'll hear people often say " I'm trying to heat an old drafty farm house with no insulation and bad single pane windows "people are not thinking in the here and now. .. the reality is you can invest in your home and save money regardless of what your heat source is . They say I can't afford it but in reality you can't afford not to . You can go broke trying to save money
 
I have come to appreciate the value of good windows and good insulation . Looking at various heating forums you'll hear people often say " I'm trying to heat an old drafty farm house with no insulation and bad single pane windows "people are not thinking in the here and now. .. the reality is you can invest in your home and save money regardless of what your heat source is . They say I can't afford it but in reality you can't afford not to . You can go broke trying to save money
Most of our house is from the 1830's, with single pane windows and no storms. They seal but obviously have little insulation. The walls are stone and log, with a decent thermal mass but little R value either. The upper floor on one part has a half attic - there is insulation in the floored attic space but there is not much room in the sloped part. We put in what we could when the roof was replaced. There is a small frame section that sandwiches the two previously stand-alone buildings together, and it was built in the 1950s. I've upgraded the insulation in it and have more to do, but it probably leaks more than the other parts do.

Temperature varies from room to room and over time as the stove cools down, from up to 100 in the basement in the evening to 50 in our bedroom in the morning. The thing is, the stoves we have are far beyond anything the people who built this place, or the occupants for the first 100 years ever had. Yet, somehow generations of people lived here, in much colder winters than we have in recent times. How did they do it?

Mostly they had different expectations, and dressed appropriately. It turns out that one's own expectations are the least expensive things to change. With stoves like these I don't really have to change them much.
 
Let me apologize first, most of my post was not directed directly and entirely towards you Coldfront.

What I was trying to get at with regulation is that many want the government to punish the propane industry and regulate it. Problem is the government would not regulate just propane but ALL heating fuels. The customer is who usually pays for the regulation.

Fear or lack of causes nearly all markets forces. Say a man is an employee at a small business and is a significant reason for the business success. The owner would/should pay well if the employee is exceptional as he would "fear" the employee would leave for more money and couldn't be replaced.

A lousy employee wouldn't get a pay raise as the owner has no fear of replacing them.

From the employees point of view. If I have excellent skills and have no fear that I could find good pay I would demand a pay raise or take my skills down the road.

A really bad employee would keep quiet as he would fear finding another job.

The other 80% of employees are somewhere in between.

Just one example.

You make statements such as how the guys cutting in the woods didn't get a raise. So what? Maybe prices have been low (have been around here) and this is a chance for the business owner to make some money. Maybe he had just be scraping by. Maybe his little girl has cancer. Maybe he is just greedy. SO What. It makes me sick to hear people complain about what they don't know about and don't want to do something for themselves about it.

You start out calm, then get all worked up again? You might want to think about anger management sessions.
 
Right now you would be lucky to find $5 propane around here, it is now pushing $6 - $7 And while were at it the firewood sellers want to jump on also Bulk 100" oak 10-12 cord truck loads went from $80 a cord to $100 a cord. Why? Diesel fuel is cheaper now than when they sold it for $80 a cord. Kick'em when there down!
Everyone has to get a piece of the action.
I'll cut down and burn all my woods before I'll pay that.
 
Back
Top