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Protect The Second Growth

slowp

slowp

Tree Freak
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Feb 6, 2007
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Warshington
I can't link to it because it is behind a paywall for the Seattle Times. Apparently there is a tree sitter in our fair state's (don't move here) Capital Forest. Apparently he objects to a timber sale and built a platform in a tree in the unit and is up there. I have deduced all this from a blurb and comments on facebook. Northman can vouch for this.

One of the comments is that old growth is very rare as is second growth forest and second growth forest needs protection. Had I had coffee in my mouth at that point, it would have been on the keyboard. More of the usual Stop Logging comments followed.

The forest is out of my area of knowledge but I have friends who recreate in it. In fact, I think it is a working forest with a lot of trails for all users and would be second or third growth. Trees grow well in that part of the state. That's all I know about it.

Anybody heard Save The Second Growth before?

I
 
northmanlogging

northmanlogging

The gyppo's gyppo
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Messages
5,997
Location
western washington

To Summerize, "tree angelo" is trying to protect trees he claims are 90-100 years old, with one of them platforms tied off to a gate or in this case an abandoned vehicle filled with concrete... you cut a rope he dies

Meanwhile the DNR says the trees have an average age of 66 years, with lots of oversize Doug fir.... So large second growth

anyway welcome to the world of poorly informed and ignorant activism..
 
2dogs

2dogs

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Santa Cruz CA
Around here pretty muchly any tree removal job or timber harvest brings out the usual suspects expressing their anger at anyone who will listen. In the city any tree over 14' dbh requires and inspection, a permit, and the job must be posted for a certain amount of time. If the tree is huge, like 20", it usually draws protesters, and Nextdoor.com lights up. We have a "heritage tree" ordinace that drives all this, and the protesters contact the city council who can over ride the permit process. A tree such as one overhanging a house can only be trimmed 10% without a permit. The ordinance applies to heritage shrubs and old growth eucalyptus. (Old growth trees now are around 40 years of age and older and are mostly non-native species. The ordinance protects the least desirable species.)

Most of the timber harvest is redwood with a very small amount of D-fir. While we haven't had anyone chain themselves to a tree or a gate or tree sit for a few years it only takes one person to stir that pot. Of course there are no old growth trees cut, everything is second or third and even fourth growth but there are still letter writing campaigns on occasion and letters to the editor.

Incidentally regarding archaelogical sites, "artifacts" are as young as 40-45 years old. This means a beer can from 1980 can stop a timber harvest. I don't believe this has happened yet but still the possibility exists.
 
northmanlogging

northmanlogging

The gyppo's gyppo
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Messages
5,997
Location
western washington
Education or lack there of is to blame here.

folks hear Save the forests, but forget or don't even understand what that means or entails.

I'm trying in a small way to shift the focus from "pillaging mother nature" to "logging=agriculture" hence the Grown In Washington sticker on my log truck, as well as much of my arguments to folks on social media. rather then the old tried and true earth first we'll log the other planets later, but a realistic approach (besides no sign of timber on Mars...)of compare a clear cut to a freshly harvested field, or think of thinning as weeding your garden etc.. a few informative words here and there, will go a long ways to changing the view of loggers from ignorant hill billies with axes, to sophisticated gentleman farmers... (and I say this with as little sarcasm as possible...)
 
2dogs

2dogs

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Keep in mind that clear-cut forests are managed for increased timber production, that is fast growing merch trees, and not for biodiversity of overall health of forests in general. That's fine of course as we need lumber and Xmas trees. But look at old growth lumber (of any species I'm guessing though not sure, Patty please jump in here), compared to today's lumber from fast growing sexy trees. Today's tree yield a far inferior product.

Plantations don't have the biodiversity of a wild forest either. From large animals to organisms in the soil there are far fewer species.

But don't worry about me. I try to check the country and state of origin but I'm not willing to wait around for "new old growth". I've got a fence to build. (I have decided to eliminate pressure treated wood from ground contact, as has our Boy Scout Council. We are using National Parks methods now.)
 
northmanlogging

northmanlogging

The gyppo's gyppo
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Messages
5,997
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western washington
Keep in mind that clear-cut forests are managed for increased timber production, that is fast growing merch trees, and not for biodiversity of overall health of forests in general. That's fine of course as we need lumber and Xmas trees. But look at old growth lumber (of any species I'm guessing though not sure, Patty please jump in here), compared to today's lumber from fast growing sexy trees. Today's tree yield a far inferior product.

Plantations don't have the biodiversity of a wild forest either. From large animals to organisms in the soil there are far fewer species.

But don't worry about me. I try to check the country and state of origin but I'm not willing to wait around for "new old growth". I've got a fence to build. (I have decided to eliminate pressure treated wood from ground contact, as has our Boy Scout Council. We are using National Parks methods now.)
Lots of private ground around here, that is second or even third growth, that is very diverse, the 6-7? (I should remember by now..) acres I'm on now has some nice big Fir, a bunch of various sized hemlock and alder patches, and a substantial stand of cedar, the surrounding acreage is all very similar, though some of it grows back to cotton weeds cause they don't take care of the ground and replant at all.

As for old growth being superior, I'm not sold on that, more often then not it has a very tight grain, but I've seen second growth lumber get confused for old growth often enough. And last I checked the strength is about the same, though one aspect is the relative lack of knots, which has more to do with the mills taking smaller diameter timber.

One of the draw backs to the modern method of mono-culture plantings is the rampant disease we are seeing, root rot, white fungus etc seem to go after entire stands, especially in planted areas, the stuff I've cut that grew back "naturally" all seems fairly healthy. Farmers experience the same issues, when your seed crop comes from one area, it may not be up to dealing with the issues of some other area, even a few miles away. The potato famine is a great example of this issue. Blight being pervasive enough on its own, its especially bad in damp climates, and the brown russet that the Irish depended on cause they grow big and quick, is extra susceptible to blight. Much like Hemlocks grow fast, they die fast too... (as a side note, most commercial potato farms currently grow brown russets but a blight "resistant" strain... so another potato famine is just waiting for evolution to catch up)

Anyway, I try to point out that we are producing more timber then ever even with less mills... but I think it falls on deaf ears.
 
slowp

slowp

Tree Freak
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Feb 6, 2007
Messages
14,923
Location
Warshington
Swiss Needle Cast--has changed the whole mono species practice. It is now spreading inland from the coast, in fact, it is starting to hit the Randle area--according to my friend who just won a major tree farm award. It's a disease that likes to hit Doug-fir. I'm not very well informed on it. More anecdotal stuff from what I've seen, we may plant a species but Western Hemlock has very blowy seed and it usually finds lots of nice places to germinate amongst the newly planted DF seedlings. Our native hardwoods seed in too. That's basically what the lower elevation westside forests have been historically--DF and Western Hemlock with Western Red Cedar growing where it is the right site. An unusual factoid--deer and elk love to eat red cedar seedlings from nurseries, but tend to leave the "wild" seedlings alone. That drove my tree farming friend crazy. She'd come to my place and see all the cedar that had seeded in and then go back to do battle with the elk and deer on the family property where they were trying to grow cedar and had planted it.

Don't get me started on the loss of huckleberry habitat!!! I only wish the Yakama tribe would open a fireworks stand on the western edge of their tribal lands. The results might make restore some berry habitat on FS land.

On the strength? Carpenters tell me it is so. The old growth was stronger than the warped, wet products we get now. Of course, one has to find a decent lumberyard and that is usually not one of the big box stores. I find the 1950s house I moved to feeling pretty solid. An old forester told me it was because it was most likely built with old growth.

There is another anecdote about Weyco's plantations of genetically superior fast growing trees reaching a height and then breaking in the coastal wind events. I'm thinking this is why engineered wood and chip board are so common now.

As for wildlife diversity--last I heard, openings (early seral spaces) were becoming rare on Forest Service lands on the westside. That's one reason the elk are now hanging out in the Cowlitz Valley year round and supplying the insurance agents and body shops business. Elk used to migrate to the high elevations in the summer and come down in the winter. That isn't happening so much anymore now that clearcutting has been discontinued and the plantations have grown in. I used to walk quite a bit on Port Blakely land and see more wildlife (birds and mammals) and evidence of wildlife than on the FS lands. A cougar trio was rumored to be hanging out in that patch of land.

Have heard that a few small time tree farmers are going to rebel and go with longer rotations to get some big trees on their land. I don't think we will ever know if that works out. They will have to rely on their younger family members to see it through.
 
northmanlogging

northmanlogging

The gyppo's gyppo
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Messages
5,997
Location
western washington
Swiss Needle Cast--has changed the whole mono species practice. It is now spreading inland from the coast, in fact, it is starting to hit the Randle area--according to my friend who just won a major tree farm award. It's a disease that likes to hit Doug-fir. I'm not very well informed on it. More anecdotal stuff from what I've seen, we may plant a species but Western Hemlock has very blowy seed and it usually finds lots of nice places to germinate amongst the newly planted DF seedlings. Our native hardwoods seed in too. That's basically what the lower elevation westside forests have been historically--DF and Western Hemlock with Western Red Cedar growing where it is the right site. An unusual factoid--deer and elk love to eat red cedar seedlings from nurseries, but tend to leave the "wild" seedlings alone. That drove my tree farming friend crazy. She'd come to my place and see all the cedar that had seeded in and then go back to do battle with the elk and deer on the family property where they were trying to grow cedar and had planted it.

Don't get me started on the loss of huckleberry habitat!!! I only wish the Yakama tribe would open a fireworks stand on the western edge of their tribal lands. The results might make restore some berry habitat on FS land.

On the strength? Carpenters tell me it is so. The old growth was stronger than the warped, wet products we get now. Of course, one has to find a decent lumberyard and that is usually not one of the big box stores. I find the 1950s house I moved to feeling pretty solid. An old forester told me it was because it was most likely built with old growth.

There is another anecdote about Weyco's plantations of genetically superior fast growing trees reaching a height and then breaking in the coastal wind events. I'm thinking this is why engineered wood and chip board are so common now.

As for wildlife diversity--last I heard, openings (early seral spaces) were becoming rare on Forest Service lands on the westside. That's one reason the elk are now hanging out in the Cowlitz Valley year round and supplying the insurance agents and body shops business. Elk used to migrate to the high elevations in the summer and come down in the winter. That isn't happening so much anymore now that clearcutting has been discontinued and the plantations have grown in. I used to walk quite a bit on Port Blakely land and see more wildlife (birds and mammals) and evidence of wildlife than on the FS lands. A cougar trio was rumored to be hanging out in that patch of land.

Have heard that a few small time tree farmers are going to rebel and go with longer rotations to get some big trees on their land. I don't think we will ever know if that works out. They will have to rely on their younger family members to see it through.
the Kitsap Peninsula has some fairly extensive wild huckleberrys (evergreen blue berries)

One of the side effects to all this reparian zone stuff, is that a lot of the timber being left, was already big... so in a few short years that stuff is going to be monstrous, good dirt, good genetics, and plenty of water have that effect.

The chip board garbage has more to do with canadian/eastern US spruce than anything I thing, they cut that stuff when its small, to small for effective lumber, cut one 2x4 out of the middle and chip the rest, or like much of the middle o Kanada they just chip it onsite and truck it to the factories (hard to call it a mill if all the do is assemble)
 
Woodslasher

Woodslasher

Make McCulloch Great Again!
Joined
Jan 2, 2019
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849
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Commiefornia

To Summerize, "tree angelo" is trying to protect trees he claims are 90-100 years old, with one of them platforms tied off to a gate or in this case an abandoned vehicle filled with concrete... you cut a rope he dies

Meanwhile the DNR says the trees have an average age of 66 years, with lots of oversize Doug fir.... So large second growth

anyway welcome to the world of poorly informed and ignorant activism..
I say cut the d*mned ropes and let the trees (and stupid hippies) fall where they may.
 
northmanlogging

northmanlogging

The gyppo's gyppo
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Messages
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western washington
I say cut the d*mned ropes and let the trees (and stupid hippies) fall where they may.
talk is easy, but a manslaughter charge is not, and really, you would have a tough time not getting charged with 1st degree murder on something like that. It would be different if you were ignorant to some jack ass camping in a tree, but they are usually very clear about being up there.

The smart thing would be to wait the prick out, but if you read the article, jobs gotta be done by the end of Oct, or wait until next year and try again... maybe... Besides, how much food can one hippie put on a sheet of plywood 60' up a tree anyway... 2 weeks worth, he'll come down and then get arrested.
 
Woodslasher

Woodslasher

Make McCulloch Great Again!
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Commiefornia
talk is easy, but a manslaughter charge is not, and really, you would have a tough time not getting charged with 1st degree murder on something like that. It would be different if you were ignorant to some jack ass camping in a tree, but they are usually very clear about being up there.

The smart thing would be to wait the prick out, but if you read the article, jobs gotta be done by the end of Oct, or wait until next year and try again... maybe... Besides, how much food can one hippie put on a sheet of plywood 60' up a tree anyway... 2 weeks worth, he'll come down and then get arrested.
I know, but hearing about ignorant jackasses who pull crap like this pisses me off. The whole “I’m a privileged, sheltered idiot who lives in a house made of wood but has decided that killing trees is bad” mindset just grates on my nerves like nothing else.
 
Trdoldtreecutter

Trdoldtreecutter

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Washington
I cut old growth out of randle/ packwood from 86-92. The last few years was whacky. Units were shut down for anything they could think of. Owls, salamanders crazy. Last sale they spread is all out to open up units before they could be shut down. It was a bit freaky working by myself in that big wood on that steep ass ground. Market went nuts when they finally shut everything down, I started contracting and never missed a beat. Massive private holdings could flood the market at any time and it was a roller coaster till it settled.
 
northmanlogging

northmanlogging

The gyppo's gyppo
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Messages
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Location
western washington
I know, but hearing about ignorant jackasses who pull crap like this pisses me off. The whole “I’m a privileged, sheltered idiot who lives in a house made of wood but has decided that killing trees is bad” mindset just grates on my nerves like nothing else.
They piss everyone off, even the folks that sympathize with em.

But what we, and I mean everyone involved in forestry, need to do is change our approach, from one of angry retorts to education, specifically aligning logging with agriculture, and renewable resources, which is frankly the absolute truth.

Granted we really shouldn't be cutting anymore actual Old Growth, just let it do its thing, simply because we don't need to, there are plenty of managed forested acres to play on. And still some whoppers from time to time even in the second growth stuff, buddies of mine are currently clearing 2 ish acres with Doug fir over 5' Dia and 180+ feet tall. Hel I've cut second growth spruce that was nearly 6' not a mile from a navy base.

The ironic thing is that the clearing that is being done around here anyway is to build more stick built houses...
 
Trdoldtreecutter

Trdoldtreecutter

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Washington
It’s hard for people to fathom what a big tree farm can produce, at least here in western Washington. The original Kapowsin tree farm , which is around 750,000 acres, has an 80 million bd ft per year sustainable yield with an average 40 year growth cycle. That’s 200 log trucks a day. It’s a decent size tree farm but it’s a drop in the bucket here. A lot of people only judge what they can see out the car window from the main highway
 
Trdoldtreecutter

Trdoldtreecutter

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Washington
Another thing is the computerized mills won’t take anything over 36”, so they can’t let that stuff grow too long or it ain’t worth **** unless it’s export grade and that ain’t likely from a young fat tree
 
Skeans

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Another thing is the computerized mills won’t take anything over 36”, so they can’t let that stuff grow too long or it ain’t worth **** unless it’s export grade and that ain’t likely from a young fat tree

Export top size depending on the yard is down to 7” now.


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Skeans

Skeans

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Have heard that a few small time tree farmers are going to rebel and go with longer rotations to get some big trees on their land. I don't think we will ever know if that works out. They will have to rely on their younger family members to see it through.

We’re on one of those rotations and have been for a long time the bad part is if it too big for export with no special call it’s hard to get rid of.


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Trdoldtreecutter

Trdoldtreecutter

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Mills like manke make a fortune off the oversize. I used to do residential tree work on the weekends and a lot of backyard logging. I would send the oversize to a private mill and pay to have it milled before I’d give it away to manke or the like
 
slowp

slowp

Tree Freak
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Warshington
I usually point out that housing developments, roads, and parking lots ARE deforestation. They won't be planted back. If the person is still anti tree cutting, I politely suggest that they can do their part by tearing down their houses and replanting the forest that was there before they were. Hypocrisy is rampant in Western Warshington. During ski season, the same people are lamenting that Stevens Pass needs more parking area. This summer, they were wanting trailhead parking lots made bigger to hold more cars. Also, if they were really concerned about the environment, they wouldn't be driving to trailheads--bicycles or walking would be eco friendlier.
 
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