Pulp, PNW style

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Alrighty, exploring a new venture. I know its going to be a nightmare of hard work, mostly hoping some of you folks will talk me out of it.

Anyway, have a project lined up that is a full cleanup scalp it to the bone type stumps and all. Anywhere else on the Planet I could just burn the slash... (which I may still be able to do... IF DNR is being nice) But in the event that I can not burn the stumps and slash, I'll have to haul it off.

So the plan is to hand cut the Fir and Hemlock tops for pulp, as now there is still one pulp mill in the area and they are paying 33-35 a ton (which is pennies I know).

Or to haul it off would be about one load of junk per load of logs, at approximately $550 per load (I'd probably be getting around 1500-2000k for each load of logs(I say that now...)).

Fire wood is just too much work and no market for it this year anyway, very mild winter last year and no one burned much wood. Still have 9 or so dumper truck loads on a previous project that haven't sold.

So to the question of the day, is it worth it to spend probably 3 days limbing and bucking the tops for pulp? or should I just cross my fingers and hope they don't take up too much room in the dump boxes. (I'm figuring on getting 6-8 load of logs from this project so prob, like one maybe two loads of pulp logs?)

P.S. I will likely be renting an excavator on this job (unless I buy one first), so the loading of said stumps and digging of said stumps won't be the issue.
 
So the plan is to hand cut the Fir and Hemlock tops for pulp, as now there is still one pulp mill in the area and they are paying 33-35 a ton (which is pennies I know).

Or to haul it off would be about one load of junk per load of logs, at approximately $550 per load (I'd probably be getting around 1500-2000k for each load of logs(I say that now...)).



So to the question of the day, is it worth it to spend probably 3 days limbing and bucking the tops for pulp? or should I just cross my fingers and hope they don't take up too much room in the dump boxes


Talk you out of it? Okay, I'll try. It sounds like a lot of work for not much return. Lots of loose ends. If the log prices stay up and if the pulp prices stay up and if you can keep your machinery rental and hauling prices down it might be worth trying. It also might be one of those "I'm going broke but I'm working my ass off" deals, too.
It's hard to pencil out job costs without having an idea of what the entire job is going to be like. You've been doing this long enough to have learned that if your gut tells you it's a bad idea it probably is. If you take on a job and go broke half way through and have to walk off it can kill your reputation. Doesn't do your bank account much good either.
 
This would be my first stumping project, so the scary part is the excavator rental... 2k a week or more, its only half an acre so I should be able to stump it in a couple of days, and load everything out if needed in short order, burning the slash shouldn't take more then 4 days.

This particular project is about #5 on the list, with a little luck I may even have enough to purchase an older excavator and then take my time on the stumping part, rather then rushing it because of the rental. (there is a Kobelco/kumatso 200 for 12k and and a few more for under 20k near by all runners just old)

As long as prices hold I'll be ok on it.

Pulping the tops would hopefully be adding money rather then losing money, even if its a bunch of hand work and I break even on the pulp its better than going backwards.
 
It's not DNR gonna stop you from burning the slash -- it's PSCAA. Those folks are vicious. We straddle the jurisdiction break between PSCAA and ORCAA; it's WAY easier to get things done in Thurston Co than it is in Pierce. As I recall, PSCAA is Pierce, King, Snohomish.
 
I think the firewood companies here pay 800 per load of logs that are not saleable to the mill ,do you have guys like that there that do production firewood ?
 
It's not DNR gonna stop you from burning the slash -- it's PSCAA. Those folks are vicious. We straddle the jurisdiction break between PSCAA and ORCAA; it's WAY easier to get things done in Thurston Co than it is in Pierce. As I recall, PSCAA is Pierce, King, Snohomish.

PSCAA has allready passed the buck to the county, which has passed the buck to DNR, and DNR just has a few hoops you have to jump through to make it happen, (fire suppression, machine on sight, contact fire dept and be mindful of burn bans etc) still have to see if we can get the approval though...

By the way PSCAA can kiss my pimply ass...

I think the firewood companies here pay 800 per load of logs that are not saleable to the mill ,do you have guys like that there that do production firewood ?

The firewood companies out here are some of my competition, they log and firewood, otherwise the rest of the "firewood" businesses is just a cover for tweekers or hillbillies looking for drug or beer money (when they can't pick up a good used saw for really really cheap). I'm ok with the hill billies... mostly... some of them are just well groomed tweekers... But like I said earlier, firewoods just not selling this year.
 
Do you not have a delimber you can just run those tops thru and knock the limbs off. In WNC I know we dont have the type or size of timber you guys out west are used to, but whitepine and longleaf pine should be similar in nature as your Fir and Hemlock. The loggers around here skid the whole tree to the landing and use a delimber to just drag the trees thru, then to the buck saw and onto the truck. Nobody runs a saw for delimbing, at least not all that much anymore. Heck around here now, all the limbs and such are ran thru a chipper and sent to the power companies to mix with coal to produce power. nothing left but stumps and not much of those if your in south ga. The timber companies there will use big dozers pulling chopping harrows to chop the brush back into the sandy ground, Then they take dogs to sniff out the stumps, dangest thing I ever seen, load those stumps up and take them to be converted into dynamite. No steep hills down there to contend with, but if the ground even looks wet you can sink a dozer in a heart beat.
 
PSCAA has allready passed the buck to the county, which has passed the buck to DNR, and DNR just has a few hoops you have to jump through to make it happen, (fire suppression, machine on sight, contact fire dept and be mindful of burn bans etc) still have to see if we can get the approval though...

Huh. Down here they rule with an iron fist, based on the lowest common denominator.

By the way PSCAA can kiss my pimply ass...

Agreed 100%.
 
Processors are not cheap, and I'm just a gyppo with delusions of grandeur.

If a regular 120-160 sized (30-40ton) excavator is 2500 a week to rent, I'm guessing that a processor which are generally a bigger machine, will be half again or double that, and not be able to dig anything.

In other words $3000-5000 to process 6-8 loads of logs, and one load of pulp. Plus fuel at 90-120 gallons a day at $2 a gallon, probably just the one day though... Oh and hiring somebody to run the damn thing at $30 plus an hour plus $21 an hour L+I... Then when that's all done bring in an excavator to pop stumps for a week or so, at 90 gallons a day...

Not a bad idea, and a processor would be fantastic or at the very least a pad mount delimber, but a processor really only makes money on a fairly good sized job. And without a grapple and a loader or excavator the pad mount delimbers are kinda useless... A guy could probably get the logs up in there with the skidder, but it would be a headache in more ways then one, and its also really hard on the machine.

As it stands if I want to do fire wood the tops need limbed.

If I want to do pulp the tops need limbed.

If I want to pay for removal... I'll need to pay for removal...

If I can burn it... then I'll need to pay for weenies, marshmallows, beer and hookers, and find/build that fire wagon... or rent one.

But really though limbing up a few extra sticks isn't such bad thing is it?

As far as the PSCAA is concerned I think they finally got the memo that no one believes (or cares) they are a real government agency, and what they have to say about burning is mostly fantasy, after all burning wood releases the exact same amount of carbon, mono or dioxide, as rotting wood. Just try not to use so many tires...
 
Crazy ex-neighbor called the PSCAA on me years ago for using my wood stove during a burn ban. It's my sole source of heat. When they showed up I ran them off and told them if they ever showed up again I would call the sheriffs and have them cited for trespassing. Never been back! They are really just stoolies for the Wa D.C. enviros.
 
No biomass buyer near enough to take the chips or have their own chipping contractors with the right gear to mow through the tops and stumps? Small job may not be worth their while but perhaps they would charge less than the $4k or so you were looking at to dump it?

Dig pits, hire fire wagon, burn sounds better though.

If you have the room, and can check it would get you higher up the food/value chain, could you get a portable mill in rather than send logs out. If it actually pays better, more $ left for dealing with the flotsam without losing your ass on the whole job.
 
Gonna go ahead and avoid getting into the milling side of things... (got enough toys I can't pay for now...)

There are outfits that chip for biomass or regular pulp, but they are massive outfits that can chug through a reefer/chip trailer in 3-5 minutes... or pretty much every stick on any of the jobs I've done in half a day.

I called one of em to see how it would work, they wanted 8K to show up, and then still had to pay by the ton for removal (crooks) that was a couple years ago.
 
Gonna go ahead and avoid getting into the milling side of things... (got enough toys I can't pay for now...)

There are outfits that chip for biomass or regular pulp, but they are massive outfits that can chug through a reefer/chip trailer in 3-5 minutes... or pretty much every stick on any of the jobs I've done in half a day.

I called one of em to see how it would work, they wanted 8K to show up, and then still had to pay by the ton for removal (crooks) that was a couple years ago.

Perhaps hire a smaller but still productive chipper/grinder yourself, if you can find a buyer? Even if it means paying the truck driver a bit extra for being parked up for an hour or two each time while you chip straight into their bins.

If there are existing firewood outfits, perhaps they may be able to extract more value and you can even offer to pay them a bit to belt through the tops pronto and it still works out cheaper overall than the $4k or so you are up for to deal to the tops. You look after them, maybe they will look after you when they get into big wood too good for firewood or need a hand on a bigger job.

Burning may be the best option, if possible to do so. Probably the cheapest. Can't cost too much to hire a fire truck, surely? Even paying someone a few days to watch over the pits and top them up (or if you are nearby then pop over twice a day and top em up yourself). I dunno what the laws are in your neck of the woods though.

I did see a Euro machine that delimbed tops, bucked, split, tumbled clean, and dropped firewood into bags. All automatically apart from the crane to feed the delimber and someone to clear the bags (or could just drop off the conveyor into piles). Thought that could work well over here for our pine tops.
 
chipping is either small scale, like 6-12" tow behind stuff, I.E. manually feeding the branches... not fun, doable, but a good way to go broke.

or get the big whole tree chipper and pay out the nose.

May have a fire pump just need to find the cash and make up a skid for it, poly totes are cheap, and hoses can be found or ordered.

I think that fires need to be supervised at all times, which isn't such a big deal, find a couple of somewhat responsible kids that don't mind staying up all night and not inviting all of their friends to a KEGGER! is really not as hard as one would think.

I like the idea of chipping everything, but past experience tells me its not really worth it, more work than limbing everything...
 
Over a year since this job was quoted... F the county and F engineers... 11 months to get a permit on this one.

Anyway, this is the job... Plan B is to load the brush into end dump trailers or 40yd trash bins, truck em off to a compost place or better yet to native ground where they can be burnt... Plan A was to burn it, but to appease the county I have to follow pscaa's rules as stupid as they are they can shut a project down.

 
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