[Rant] Chinese animosity

[Derf]

I spend some time over on GarageJournal forums and there was an interesting thread about Chinese manufactured parts as explained by an ex-VP sales of an undisclosed large-production company. He said that typically when a company makes the decision to move their production overseas, specifically to China, it has 80% to do with cost savings and 20% to with production capabilities. Being that cost is the major motivator, the conversation goes something like, "we make this widget for $20 and sell it for $30, but we'd really like to make this widget for $10 and sell it for $30 (or $25 to undercut the competition). The Chinese, happy to oblige, make the part for $10, which necessitates
using lower quality materials
spending less time post-processing and assembling parts, to the detriment of quality control
and other general cost-quality shortcuts to turn out a cheaper product, in a higher production volume.

Then these products come to the US, and sometimes the quality is so below what people are used to that they complain that it is "cheap Chinese crap". The reality is, it isn't so much the Chinese's fault, its the fault of the company that dictates the low price point.

This trend has repeated itself before in history. Some of you may remember "Jap Crap" from the 80's, and eventually Japan began to limit the amount low-quality production work they did. Now, typically, Japanese quality is considered top shelf. China now too is going through these growing pains.

Every time I read someone saying that 'its cheap Chinese crap' I feel there is a stigma towards the Chinese. And every time I think, "they're just making it cheap because they were told to make it cheap."

[/Rant]

 

[weimedog]

I'll nibble.

If you have the connections to people in the manufacturing world, you know that your premise is less than half the story. The complete story would just piss you off even more.

I can tell you that from an investment and technology perspective; there is very little anymore that can't be manufactured AND now designed in the Pacific Rim. Especially in the consumer level projects. With in a few years, military as well. There is NO shortage of very smart people everywhere. Especially in China. Given the tools to take concept to reality and there is no telling where that will lead.

The thing that used to bother me was this concept the center of the design world was ... here. Or Europe. A derivative of that is assuming others from other cultures & places will end up with concepts predictable by ... us. Not true.

Japan proved that thought process to be foolish, Russia's Aerospace innovations as well. In China?? Parity was achieved in the late 1990's for the available technology & tools for Conceptual Design, was implemented by the mid 2000's and now there is no predicting where the technology trail goes over there. At least not by people over here.

How do I feel about it? I certainly have no animosity for any one from China! But I have nothing but contempt for those here who sold us out in the 1990's. That's My rant.

 

[Derf]

I'm ignoring other aspects of the relationship we have with China
- set up factory to work for XYZ company by day, use the same tools & dies at night to produce same product and sell it on the grey market
- blatant copying of designs & I.P.
- blatant copying of I.P., and then changing it to make it cheaper (or because they don't understand the mechanism)

But I just wanted to focus on the one aspect of hired to make it cheaply and let XYZ company put their name on it.

 

[computeruser]

And if the US consumers cared enough not to buy this stuff, the problem would take care of itself. But they don't, and it won't.

 

[Locoweed]

IMHO, part of the problem is that many (most?) of the consumers in this country look for cheap prices instead of quality. Throw it away & buy a new one is what they want. Unfortunately, I grew up in the previous era & appreciate quality products. I am very definitely in the minority.

 

[weimedog]

The problem with conversations focusing on the symptoms of a situation such as this... it missing the 800 lbs. gorilla in the room. And that is the role played by politics which sets the stage, and has way more influence on how this has played out than any corporate board room. Simply because of the impact on the cost of doing business (AND innovation ) anywhere is ultimately controlled by the political environment. It sucks here anymore because of the political environment we've had for at least the last 50 years. AND to blame the corporate world for taking advantage of these opportunities is like blaming the Chinese people for doing the same. We have been sold a bill of goods and now we whine about the predictable results? As a nation? Simply the cost of apathy.

But not interested in thinking about this any more.. have fun kicking this subject around! I'm butting out.

 

[Rockjock]

I spend some time over on GarageJournal forums and there was an interesting thread about Chinese manufactured parts as explained by an ex-VP sales of an undisclosed large-production company. He said that typically when a company makes the decision to move their production overseas, specifically to China, it has 80% to do with cost savings and 20% to with production capabilities. Being that cost is the major motivator, the conversation goes something like, "we make this widget for $20 and sell it for $30, but we'd really like to make this widget for $10 and sell it for $30 (or $25 to undercut the competition). The Chinese, happy to oblige, make the part for $10, which necessitates
using lower quality materials
spending less time post-processing and assembling parts, to the detriment of quality control
and other general cost-quality shortcuts to turn out a cheaper product, in a higher production volume.

Then these products come to the US, and sometimes the quality is so below what people are used to that they complain that it is "cheap Chinese crap". The reality is, it isn't so much the Chinese's fault, its the fault of the company that dictates the low price point.

This trend has repeated itself before in history. Some of you may remember "Jap Crap" from the 80's, and eventually Japan began to limit the amount low-quality production work they did. Now, typically, Japanese quality is considered top shelf. China now too is going through these growing pains.

Every time I read someone saying that 'its cheap Chinese crap' I feel there is a stigma towards the Chinese. And every time I think, "they're just making it cheap because they were told to make it cheap."

[/Rant]

You are correct on many things but.. China makes it very attractive to move operations over there. Often times they will build to suit your facility and even give it rent free. What you are mistaken about is the lower quality of materials. I make this widget for 10.00 with the same materials just much cheaper labour. I come from the automotive sector. We could order a mold from China and the USA at the same time. We would get the Chinese mold delivered to us quicker, cheaper and better made. So why would we order from the states? China can just buy the machinery and hit the ground running. They do not have to go through the R&D they would call us to trouble shoot a machine. I was in Germany training on a Dieffenbacher composites press and was asked if I would mind going to China to demonstrate a process that my company did.
Yes fly us out just to show them how our process works. They did not have to go through the months or years of trial and error they just buy the process when it is done. I think you will find more and more Made in China coming to a store near you. The world is a very different place gents. 享受

 

[Gologit]

The world is a very different place gents. 享受

True. But different isn't always better.

 

[1Alpha1]

It's not just cause China can make things cheaply, but rather, it's the only way they know how to do it.

It's just not in their mindset to make high-quality products. It's not their collective nature. It's not the way they were trained and schooled.

There isn't anything made in China that I would care to own. Absolutely nothing!!

 

[broman78]

It's not just cause China can make things cheaply, but rather, it's the only way they know how to do it.

It's just not in their mindset to make high-quality products. It's not their collective nature. It's not the way they were trained and schooled.

There isn't anything made in China that I would care to own. Absolutely nothing!!

Clarify the last sentence for me. There are several companies that have things manufactured in china and the quality if good. Where are you going to buy a piece of electronics that isn't manufactured in China? It may be designed or assembled in America but the device is made in China. In 20 or 40 years people will be sending production to the African continent.

 

[CR888]

lf you buy any stihl pro saw.....you are supporting china. Just because a sticker says 'made in germany/made in USA' does not mean parts within that product are not made in china(MIC). l hate pulling apart expensive German saws to find china parts. lt sucks but that is how the free market works l suppose. l know one thing about China that is different compared to established ecomony's is that they have no idea about patons and believe anyones ideas are up for grabs.

 

[Little Al]

It's the same problem that has been prevalent since time began ( some thing for nothing or very little syndrome ) if Joe Public insists on buying an article for the least amount of $'s some one somewhere will will fill that need & if a company can either produce, or get some one to produce it, at such a cost as to enable them to make a LARGE profit. As stated you cannot blame the manufacturer( Chinese or otherwise ) if some company is willing to pay them (including profit) to produce what some describe as 'crap' . as again the Pays your money & takes your pick rings true, if no one buys the 'Crap' it will either die the death, or a more quality product will be produced ( But I fear Joe Public will still continue to demand/purchase the cheap junk) so the same or more will continue to appear in the stores.

 

[MCW]

Having dealt with big Chinese business in the agricultural chemical and fertilizer market I can assure you that they quite often intend to shaft Western companies dealing with them. Unless said company has Western representatives on the ground overseeing the Chinese operations you can bet your left one you won't receive what you paid for - and they well and truly know it.
There are many tales of tightarse farmers dealing direct with Chinese fertilizer companies to bypass suppliers from the industry I work in who end up receiving a $25,000 forty foot container of fertilizer free dirt.
You only have to talk to businesses involved with the Chinese to hear constant horror stories. I could tell some absolute cracker tales with some of the things I have seen in fertilizer and chemicals. The original samples are up to spec to get you in then everything thereafter goes to sh*t.
If you find a trustworthy Chinese business to deal with you treat them like gold.

 

[Ironworker]

The problem with conversations focusing on the symptoms of a situation such as this... it missing the 800 lbs. gorilla in the room. And that is the role played by politics which sets the stage, and has way more influence on how this has played out than any corporate board room. Simply because of the impact on the cost of doing business (AND innovation ) anywhere is ultimately controlled by the political environment. It sucks here anymore because of the political environment we've had for at least the last 50 years. AND to blame the corporate world for taking advantage of these opportunities is like blaming the Chinese people for doing the same. We have been sold a bill of goods and now we whine about the predictable results? As a nation? Simply the cost of apathy.

But not interested in thinking about this any more.. have fun kicking this subject around! I'm butting out.

Corporations line the pockets of politicians, it's all about the dollar.

 

[Jeff Lary]

It is kind of interesting to hear this in plain speak as opposed to the spin you get on tv and raido.

 

[blsnelling]

We could order a mold from China and the USA at the same time. We would get the Chinese mold delivered to us quicker, cheaper and better made.

I beg to differ!!!

 

[Derf]

It's not just cause China can make things cheaply, but rather, it's the only way they know how to do it.

It's just not in their mindset to make high-quality products. It's not their collective nature. It's not the way they were trained and schooled.

There isn't anything made in China that I would care to own. Absolutely nothing!!

I find this post highly racist.

 

[computeruser]

I find this post highly racist.

Culture-ist, perhaps, but not racist.

 

[Ironworker]

http://www.americanmadeworkboots.com/brands/Carolina.html
http://theunionbootpro.com/products/dsp_productlinks.cfm?http://www.unionlabel.com/mens-pants.htmladvsearch=&saletype=USA&salename=USAW

There out there people, I know some of you guys are anti union but that's what made this country what it was not only are we losing to overseas but we're also losing the battle right on our own shores, it is possible to get goods reasonably priced without slave labor the greedy corporations have us believing something else.

 

[MrGiggles]

China can build to any quality specified. To say everything manufactured in China is junk is a very broad and incorrect generalization.

John Deere has been using Chinese parts for a long time now, and the engines in their new Gators are sourced from a Chinese car company. They are far from junk.