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Rare Grafted Elms

Discussion in 'Arborist 101' started by PinkFloydEffect, Jun 14, 2010.

  1. PinkFloydEffect

    PinkFloydEffect ArboristSite Guru

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    So I have been in a debate with myself and this Chinese guy. There are a # of these trees in our town and a few surrounding towns. But this is down the street from me (they are all on main roads) So I asked the wise old gardening Chinese fellow if he knows what kind of tree this is. He says "it wheepin mulberry" so I said sir that is not a weeping mulberry tree that is a Camperdown Elm, "weep mulberry" no sir look there is a graft ring "IT WEEP MULBERRY" so I said its rare so treasure it, and he looked at me funny "tree not rare it wheepin mulberry!!" so I just said ok have a nice day but seriously, don't tell me I was just outsmarted by this guy that can't even speak English is it a Camperdown Elm graft? This tree can not reproduce itself though a seed?

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  2. vincem77

    vincem77 ArboristSite Operative

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    I cannot speak for the grafting, but the rest of it looks to be consistent with weeping mulberry. The fruit bearing mulberry trees in my neck of the woods are just a week or 2 away from being ripe.
     
  3. bsearcey

    bsearcey ArboristSite Operative

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    I'm not familiar with either varities (weeping mulberry or camperdown elm), but if you just showed me the leaf I not hesitate to say it was from an elm.
     
  4. rarefish383

    rarefish383 Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Pink, I think the old Chinese guy is definatly not Mr Miagi, and I'm quite certain you are correct. Your trees look like Camperdown Elms. At first glance I would have said Mulbery too. But, when you said Elm, I looked closer at your pics and they did look like Elm leaves and limb structure. I Googled Camperdown Elm and the pics looked like you took them. Very neet tree, I might have to get one. Thanks for sharing this one, Joe.
     
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  5. bsearcey

    bsearcey ArboristSite Operative

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    rarefish. If you find out where you get them post the source. I read about it on wikipedia and "Every Camperdown Elm in the world is from a cutting taken from that original mutant cutting and is usually grafted on a Wych elm trunk." I bet they are pretty hard to come by.
     
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  6. rhunt13

    rhunt13 ArboristSite Lurker

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    camperdown elm it is. i have a 100+ year old one, and a few younger ones at work. i work for the massacghusetts horticultural society, and our camperdown can be dated back to when it was planted in the formal garden it is still in. oh, and it looks the same as your tree in question.
     
  7. senones

    senones ArboristSite Lurker

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    Looks like a Camperdown Elm to me

    Look, i know i live in the subtropics, but i was just researching Camperdown Elm for certain scholarly purposes. Considering i have never seen one in real life (as we don't get many elms down here) it sure looks like a camperdown elm to me. Not positive, but trying to add to a majority. By the way (which one's) Pink, the fat man rocks!
     
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  8. yooper

    yooper Tree Freak

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    yes camperdown elm it is.

    This is in its winter form, not sure if you can see the grafting on the bottom. It is a Photo I took In Houghton Mi here in the U.P.

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  9. yooper

    yooper Tree Freak

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    sometimes I pee when I laugh
    oops sorry I didn't re size the photo:deadhorse:
     
  10. treeclimber101

    treeclimber101 UNCLE BUCK

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    Nice tree but why wouldn't that guy get outta the picture?
     
  11. PinkFloydEffect

    PinkFloydEffect ArboristSite Guru

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    Thank! I find it simply amazing but here's the problem THEY ARE HIGHLY AT RISK OF DUTCH ELM DISEASE but my guess is they made it because the beetle can not access the trunk easily, the canopy blocks it :hmm3grin2orange:

    Really?? Holy wow that's so cool! So your saying that all the Camperdown Elms I have seen locally have all been cloned from probably the same mother Camperdown Elm's canopy? There has to be a mother tree in my town or one of the surrounding towns then! 1900s they did not go THAT far for clones so the mothers are most likely spaced out across MA (of course there are others in other states) So most likely my guess is 1 very smart man around the 1900s grafted all the Camperdowns I see locally today himself. I am willing to ship anyone cuttings in a cooler I have multiple Camperdowns to choose from for cuttings, spread the rarity around! ☮

    So how do you go about aging one off the trunks diameter? Is it the same growth rate as a normal Wych Elm?

    Thanks for the input, and yes that fat man with the beard and glasses is the man.

    Thanks for the tree post! I will post more around my town, many have flagged spots so they are most likely diseased. I am studying DED if anyone knows a handful. And who do I call to report them so they can be destroyed before it spreads across town? I know of several dead elms or diseased elms standing next to somewhat historic elms, aggravates me I am the only one that pays attention around here.
     
  12. tomtrees58

    tomtrees58 Addicted to ArboristSite

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    hey yoopers is that a monkey in the window:popcorn:
     
  13. bsearcey

    bsearcey ArboristSite Operative

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    Here's the wikepedia page:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulmus_glabra_'Camperdownii'

    Yeah I thought it was pretty cool about the grafting from the original Camperdown speciman. I can't imagine that all the Camperdowns were actually created from cuttings off the original tree, but like you said cuttings from other grafted trees, over and over again. But still they would be genetically identical.

    According to the wikipedia article (to be taken with a grain of salt) they are not that vulnerable to DED because the american bugs carrying it don't feed on the Wych Elm.

    I'd love to have a cutting; however, a quick search for wych elm doesn't find any for sale either. I'll keep searching though because it would be awesome to have one, especially knowing about the lineage.

    Good work PFE!
     
  14. PinkFloydEffect

    PinkFloydEffect ArboristSite Guru

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    Very good point, I forgot where I read the DED fact. If your able to find a Wych Elm specimen (this goes for anyone else) let me know and I will take some clones. Also I am going to keep my eyes out for any new whips coming out of these Camperdowns trunks and possibly I can obtain a Wych Elm clone from one!
     
  15. lxt

    lxt Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Good eye & a neat tree with an even neater history!! stuff like this is what makes our trade cool!!!



    LXT..............
     
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  16. PinkFloydEffect

    PinkFloydEffect ArboristSite Guru

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    Boo-Yah

    Exactly!

    So this is the "fruit or flower" of this tree (kind of looks like dried up roses)
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    Here it is from a distance, now look to the left, see anything? Take a closer look!
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    This is the main road leading into my town and I think all the ones in my town that were created in the early 1900s were taken from this tree literally horizontal from the tree I first posted and its HUGE. The mother tree :)
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  17. PinkFloydEffect

    PinkFloydEffect ArboristSite Guru

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    So Cool!

    Here is the problem with this massive Campdown Elm, it is either (1) diseased or (2) it has something to do with the trunk rot.
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    Here is the trunk rot, I'm no expert but it kind of looks like a graft rejection on this side but I have other theory's as well.
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    Here is the OTHER side of the trunk, and here is my other theory and that is that there is a girdling root constricting the other side of the tree.
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    Look closely, see the flower bed mulch retainer? And the missing taper? GIRDLERS! Someone raised the dirt level around the trunk like a god damn retard.
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    Now I know what your saying there is no graft ring or meet joint, well that's what I thought at first too until I looked at these pictures more closely its hiding very well! This tree is so darn old the graft is smooth and I am certain because the bark split is noticeable up close, the bottom bark is identical to the previous tree and the top bark is identical to the previous trees top bark.
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    It really is a beautiful tree:
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    Many dead branches:
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    Looks like I have my work cut out for me I am going to knock on these peoples door tell them the Campdown Elm story and then do some free work just so I can see this thing live. I don't climb but I can prune anything dead I can reach and perform what I am best at, root collar corrections.
     
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  18. bsearcey

    bsearcey ArboristSite Operative

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    Man I wish I knew more about plant pathology to give you some advice on what to do. Sounds like you already have a good idea about 1 possible issue. The trunk rot looks pretty bad. Hopefully it can be saved. I just want to point out that some of the leaves (especially in the last pictures labeled Dead Branches) appear to have damage from insects. The pattern just resembles insect grazing. I'm sure you'll get some responses from some more knowledgable folks on the forum.

    I would be extremely cautious in undertaking any work on this tree. I would certainly get something in writing from the owners saying that you will not be held liable if the tree does not survive. I'd hate to think what the value on that tree would be $$$$$$$.
     
  19. rarefish383

    rarefish383 Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Do Not Mess with those trees. The mulch doesn't look that bad, and it's not like back fill. The trees look pretty healthy. They do look like they have some insect feeding on them, but not lethal amounts. If you were to do anything to one of those trees and it died, whether your fault or not, the owner might come after you for some big money. If these trees are all but irreplaceable you don't want to get caught up in a legal mess. If you want to give the home owner a history of the tree and show them the bad spots, that's fine. Recommend that they get a licensed specialist to look at the tree. Thanks again for this one, Joe.
     
  20. PinkFloydEffect

    PinkFloydEffect ArboristSite Guru

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    I am going to release myself before I touch it good thinking. I really can't see anything but sucess though.

    ? the other one is fine it's the big one. That is not even mulch dude thats straight up 2 inches of potting soil that was raised around the trunk its completely obvious. The person that lives there is a very old elderly man with no money, so I'm sure he will write off any liability on work if its free. I know its a hard tree to determine the outcome on but if he gives me the OK and even IF it dosent make it, I still learnt something if we never try then we never know how to adress this in the future. I will widespread all the results so people can learn from me if it becomes a mistake. The world learns form trial and error and not many have had to oppertunity to adress one of these.
     
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