rig guy wirestops

[Tree Machine]

Technically we have 6 holes wounding conductive tissue and bark with a thru drill. You would have 6 as well with a boxed in system using lags and they would be much shallower, although a little wider.

Or 12 with thru-bolts.

 

[Tree Machine]

Here's a picture from earlier today, 9 cables in the tree, two failed. They were all old and quite rusty.

This picture also answers a question earlier from Outofmytree; by the way, thank you for popping in and contributing.

The type of termination attached to the J-lag is called a traditional splice and can be used with J-lags or amon eye thru-bolts. It must be used incorporating a thimble, as this one is.

To perform this splice, you unwrap the cable 4 or 6 inches, create a bight in the cable, that is, bend the cable around the thimble where it is still intact, at a place a couple inches this side of where it was unwrapped. You now have intact cable going up one side of the thimble, around, and backdown the other side, then it opens up into the 7 individual strands.

Take one strand, bend it 90 degrees and begin wrapping it tightly around both the remaining 6 strands and the incoming, intact cable. When you go around three or 4 times, cut it, take strand #2, bend it 90 degrees, wrap it tightly around the remaining 5 strands and adjacent incoming cable. Repeat with strands 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 until all have been wound around.

You can not use EHS (Extra High Strength) cable with this method. EHS doesn't bend well. EHS has the benefit of a much higher tensile strength and assumed longevity, but until the wedge and taper system, the only termination option was with spiral wraps (dead ends) and those could be employed with either J-lags or amon eye thru bolts, and again a thimble must also be used.

The rigguy system offers a new option with the benefit of minimal hardware (just the block and taper) and a very small diameter hole that has to be drilled since it is only the cable that fits through the hole, not larger diameter hardware, and it terminated from the backside in a different manner, but the same as a thru-bolt/washer/nut system.

 

[Tree Machine]

http://www.rigguy.com/product-dvd-v-11.html

Here is a little vid I found on rigguy.

Hey, thanks! I hadn't seen that.

 

[treevet]

You keep discussing and illustrating failed lags and everyone including ANSI would agree they have their limits and thus should be used with discretion. I recall you had a cable system fail and crash a house. I have not....ever. When a stronger application is called for I upgrade.

To be considered is the fact that Rigguy MAY be at the lower end of this range as is a lag installation. Sure, you can use EHS but is the EHS the weak link in the system. I doubt it. Again I do not like the separated strands of cable (also called strand) at the termination to be subject to corrosion more easily by lack of density if nothing else. Again for the zillioneth time I do not like the thinner stranded piece of hardware (cable as opposed to a thicker and solid bolt) hidden from view in the hole.

One can see I believe in your picture that the shaft of the j lag appears more degraded than the hook that is in the open air. Rigguy is a brand new entity with almost no history or longevity to refer to for assessment of failures.

If it was a high level target and extreme pressures from say prevailing winds, storm exposure, heavily leaning leads (maybe over a very active playground) are you all gonna be the research for this system. Not me.

We have to consider that this Rigguy fellow is an entrepreneur. He has found a niche to save us arbs. a little time and energy. On his website he requests anyone else's inventions to come forward. Maybe if this does not work out he will try a tool to help install carpet flat against walls and become "Rugguy".

 

[treevet]

Hey, thanks! I hadn't seen that.

Your welcome.

 

[Greenstar]

You keep discussing and illustrating failed lags and everyone including ANSI would agree they have their limits and thus should be used with discretion. I recall you had a cable system fail and crash a house. I have not....ever. When a stronger application is called for I upgrade.

To be considered is the fact that Rigguy MAY be at the lower end of this range as is a lag installation. Sure, you can use EHS but is the EHS the weak link in the system. I doubt it. Again I do not like the separated strands of cable (also called strand) at the termination to be subject to corrosion more easily by lack of density if nothing else. Again for the zillioneth time I do not like the thinner stranded piece of hardware (cable as opposed to a thicker and solid bolt) hidden from view in the hole.

One can see I believe in your picture that the shaft of the j lag appears more degraded than the hook that is in the open air. Rigguy is a brand new entity with almost no history or longevity to refer to for assessment of failures.

If it was a high level target and extreme pressures from say prevailing winds, storm exposure, heavily leaning leads (maybe over a very active playground) are you all gonna be the research for this system. Not me.

We have to consider that this Rigguy fellow is an entrepreneur. He has found a niche to save us arbs. a little time and energy. On his website he requests anyone else's inventions to come forward. Maybe if this does not work out he will try a tool to help install carpet flat against walls and become "Rugguy".

Dude, I'm sure Rigguy has tested the system extensively. Otherwise it would have received bad press already.

So I guess the debate here is whether the single strands that splay out to anchor the cable rust faster and start snapping faster under exerted pressure, and hence fail more easily in a less amount of time??

I don't know man..

I have thought about it for a few months now myself, and its seems like a pretty good system all around!

 

[treevet]

Dude, I'm sure Rigguy has tested the system extensively. Otherwise it would have received bad press already.

Fox guarding the hen house, dude? I am sure they have their a$$ covered in the event of catastrophe. That is the neg. side of insurance and limiting liability corporations. (pssssst....this is bad press)

So I guess the debate here is whether the single strands that splay out to anchor the cable rust faster and start snapping faster under exerted pressure, and hence fail more easily in a less amount of time??

Also if the cable rusts faster in the drill hole and if bolts last longer significantly longer than much thinner stranded cable. I haven't seen any debate, I am just putting it out there. Why don't we give up on bolts altogether and just use cable and this termination in any application that is not tree work? I like to look at all aspects in question. I tend to be a skeptic on a new venture for profit such as this. This is a treatment that can prevent OR CAUSE a higher level of risk if not done properly. I know Tree Machine and others would like the approval of peers to feel more comfortable in this new treatment that is making life much easier but is that comfort warranted? More warranted in the 2 possible weakest link scenarios?

I have thought about it for a few months now myself, and its seems like a pretty good system all around!

Why haven't you begun using them then and just throw out all the other stuff? I think I know the answer to that.

 

[outofmytree]

You keep discussing and illustrating failed lags and everyone including ANSI would agree they have their limits and thus should be used with discretion. I recall you had a cable system fail and crash a house. I have not....ever. When a stronger application is called for I upgrade.

To be considered is the fact that Rigguy MAY be at the lower end of this range as is a lag installation. Sure, you can use EHS but is the EHS the weak link in the system. I doubt it. Again I do not like the separated strands of cable (also called strand) at the termination to be subject to corrosion more easily by lack of density if nothing else. Again for the zillioneth time I do not like the thinner stranded piece of hardware (cable as opposed to a thicker and solid bolt) hidden from view in the hole.

One can see I believe in your picture that the shaft of the j lag appears more degraded than the hook that is in the open air. Rigguy is a brand new entity with almost no history or longevity to refer to for assessment of failures.

If it was a high level target and extreme pressures from say prevailing winds, storm exposure, heavily leaning leads (maybe over a very active playground) are you all gonna be the research for this system. Not me.

We have to consider that this Rigguy fellow is an entrepreneur. He has found a niche to save us arbs. a little time and energy. On his website he requests anyone else's inventions to come forward. Maybe if this does not work out he will try a tool to help install carpet flat against walls and become "Rugguy".

Hi TV. I love the passion you have for this part of our trade.

Could I ask if you have seen failures of through systems that involve components rather than incompetent installers?

I take it the rusty hook TM showed is what you guys refer to as a j lag(?). The deficiencies of this sort of fixture are going to be accelerated by corrosion as decay of the surface decreases friction by decreasing the area of holding face. That is, as it rusts, it gets thinner and wobblier.

TV I think it is just as likely that the difference in relative corrosion you pointed out is a result of different metal composition as it is to be different location. Unless you have empirical evidence to suggest that through bolts fail from corrosion I think we can safely say that the principal concern with the rigguy system is what you have stated earlier. That the most likely point of failure is hidden within the tree from the start.

I can add fuel to the fire by saying that I have much experience of corrosion OUTSIDE a tree where the zinc coated steel cracks after bending. So it is indeed more likely that a cable that is seperated, bent and abraded will suffer greater corrosion that one that is not. The question is, will this increased POTENTIAL for corrosion, equal an increased potential for failure, or is the system engineered to allow for this possibility.

 

[treevet]

Hi TV. I love the passion you have for this part of our trade.

Hi Outofmytree, as I said earlier, I hoped you would show up in this thread.

Could I ask if you have seen failures of through systems that involve components rather than incompetent installers?

Every system is going to fail given time I think it is safe to assume. The important thing is to get the longest survival of all links and, SOMEHOW become able to quantify lifespan and act accordingly.

I take it the rusty hook TM showed is what you guys refer to as a j lag(?). The deficiencies of this sort of fixture are going to be accelerated by corrosion as decay of the surface decreases friction by decreasing the area of holding face. That is, as it rusts, it gets thinner and wobblier.

I have not seen any lags pull out in a proper installation without wood deterioration from the tree or that part dieing period. By proper installation I mean what was common sense and now is ANSI limitations put on lag usage.

TV I think it is just as likely that the difference in relative corrosion you pointed out is a result of different metal composition as it is to be different location. Unless you have empirical evidence to suggest that through bolts fail from corrosion I think we can safely say that the principal concern with the rigguy system is what you have stated earlier. That the most likely point of failure is hidden within the tree from the start.

I think we can agree that there is a different appearance in the inside aspect of the pictured lag from the exterior section. I have found this to be true many times when splitting wood and retrieving old lags. Is the interior environment conducive to rust? Damp, dark, chemicals etc may be the cause. Until scientific research is done on this all opinions will be conjecture.
But I think an astute observer can correctly state that rust will occur on both the bolt and the cable in the drill hole as a matter of course and that likely the bolt will last longer than the thinner, stranded cable....No?


I

can add fuel to the fire by saying that I have much experience of corrosion OUTSIDE a tree where the zinc coated steel cracks after bending. So it is indeed more likely that a cable that is seperated, bent and abraded will suffer greater corrosion that one that is not. The question is, will this increased POTENTIAL for corrosion, equal an increased potential for failure, or is the system engineered to allow for this possibility.

 

[treevet]

:agree2:

Also, You know it is not like the guy (rigguy) can upgrade this system and make it conform or better.

It lives or dies with the wedge/ferrule. You cannot put a thread on the cable end and then put a washer and nut on the threads as a termination. Also, You cannot change the cable running thru the tree to a solid thicker piece by some magic. It is what it is.

 

[pdqdl]

... I bet the soft wire with spliced eye is superior to EHS cable installs........

I'll take that bet.

Just look at the load ratings of the two different kinds of wire. And like you pointed out, the utility companies are using grips on EHS.

EHS is what? Three times stronger than mild strand?

 

[Tree Machine]

I bet the soft wire with spliced eye is superior to EHS cable installs.........It would be interesting to know how long those dead end grips hold up. I see them in power line applications so they must be good.

Power companies also use wedge and ferrule systems. I've seen them for anchoring guy wires from pole to ground. Using wire wraps to connect the ground anchor to the cable would mean any Joe Walkalong could release the system with a pair of pliers. The power company's wedge and ferrule looks a bit different than rigguy, same principle, though.

Here's a couple more pics of an aged lag and splice system. Those lags are surely not going to fail.

Also, You cannot change the cable running thru the tree to a solid thicker piece by some magic. It is what it is.

I somehow think this 'is what it is' and also cannot be changed by magic.

That brings up a good point, in changing out cables..... if you were to pull a future cable out of a rigguy set, wouldn't it seem logical that you could reinsert a new cable of the same diameter back into the same hole?

 

[treevet]

How do you know they are lags and what is your point. These are obviously candidates for replacement. The system has likely fallen below the "2/3" distance from crotch to top and the tree has added on much more mass (to be supported) in the interum, not to mention the deterioration of the system.

This is why your theory to remove the old cable and slide another thru the stem does not wash IMO. Time to replace or add another above this one IMO.

Anyone have any comment on lightning attraction to cable systems? I have seen strikes jump leads thru cables many times but do not know if the bolt is more apt to hit a metal cabled tree?

 

[Tree Machine]

How do you know they are lags and what is your point.

I know they are lags because they are in the same 9-cable system where two of them had failed. My point? No point, really. I just took the time to shoot the pictures, so I thought I'd share em. Pictures help break up a rather long-winded debate.

These are obviously candidates for replacement. The system has likely fallen below the "2/3" distance from crotch to top and the tree has added on much more mass (to be supported) in the interum, not to mention the deterioration of the system.

All true. Nor did the installer follow ANSI recommendations on proper spacing of the lags.

In this image below, one of the failed cable sites (left protrusion) has been completely sealed over by the tree. The one on the right, mostly eaten, cable still intact.

This is why your theory to remove the old cable and slide another thru the stem does not wash IMO. Time to replace or add another above this one IMO.

I would have to agree with that, too.

Anyone have any comment on lightning attraction to cable systems? I have seen strikes jump leads thru cables many times but do not know if the bolt is more apt to hit a metal cabled tree?

Yes. Anyone out there, feel free to add in. As individual and unique as every lightning strike is, these natural forces do follow certain laws of physics and are very predictable in that respect. Lightning is initiated between areas of positive charge and areas of negative charge. When the areas of negative charge and positive charge are large enough to create a strong electrical field, a discharge is initiated.

The key word here is area. If a tree or tower or dude with a golf club or umbrella is in that area, that object or person could be hit. It depends on another law of physic involving electricity, and that is that electricity wants to go to ground through the path of least resistance.

If a cable is part of that path of least resistance, the cable will take the hit, but the cable itself does not attract electricity. The cable, as far as I know, does not spontaneously make the area more negatively charged and would not make the tree more likely to take a hit. That's coming from the standpoint of physics.

From my personal experience, I've seen a lot of lightning struck trees. None have had cables in them.

 

[outofmytree]

This thread is more fun that most of the joke threads. Honest!

That lightning question is a really interesting one.

It has been said, and I would love some feedback on this, that "lightning rods" on houses do not affect the chance of a strike one way or the other. If this is true, and I do not KNOW this to be so, then by the same logic, a steel cable system would equally have no effect on the chance of a strike in a tree. Of course, if a cabled tree was struck the cable would be more likely to conduct the charge than the tree but exactly what effect that would have, I could not say.

Touching on the wedge and ferrule discussion, what sort of testing has been done and documented for the system? If we take aside the "hidden component" issue, it would be handy to be able to compare the failure under load of a wedge and ferrule vs splice to eye termination on the same cable. I would think that the manufacturer would have published these sorts of testings already. If only we had a search engine and someone to use it........

 

[Tree Machine]

It has been said, and I would love some feedback on this, that "lightning rods" on houses do not affect the chance of a strike one way or the other. If this is true, and I do not KNOW this to be so, then by the same logic, a steel cable system would equally have no effect on the chance of a strike in a tree. Of course, if a cabled tree was struck the cable would be more likely to conduct the charge than the tree but exactly what effect that would have, I could not say.

It is for the same reason that lightning protection in trees does not itself attract lightning. What it does is offer a path of least resistance in the case of a strike, down to ground and away from the roots of the tree where the charge dissipates.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

what sort of testing has been done and documented for the system? If we take aside the "hidden component" issue, it would be handy to be able to compare the failure under load of a wedge and ferrule vs splice to eye termination on the same cable. I would think that the manufacturer would have published these sorts of testings already.

Yea, I'm kinda interested in what kind of objective, measurable testing has been done that can give reproducible results.

Treevet refers to 'the fox guarding the henhouse', but results from the manufacturer are just fine, as long as the same test can be independently performed independently by someone else independently and results would be in the same ballpark.


Hey Rigguy, ye are being summoned. Step forward and throw down. We are assuming you have testing data, and we would like to see it.

If you don't have any testing data, I'm afraid you could be sunk with this crowd.

 

[treevet]

It is for the same reason that lightning protection in trees does not itself attract lightning. What it does is offer a path of least resistance in the case of a strike, down to ground and away from the roots of the tree where the charge dissipates.

I have seen many strikes on cabled trees and like I said many times (maybe all but I cannot recall) the strike will follow the cable to the other lead that has been cabled often leaving 2 wounds the remainder of the way down. Just like you often see a strike go down and hit the base of a branch and split and go around the branch attachment to the ground.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think we have a little rudimentary research here ourselves with Jim's pictures. It seems some cables have failed and some have not. Likely the cable came from the same spool and is existing in the same environment. One might assume that pressure on these cables was the deciding factor in these failures. Does it look like that Jim? Or maybe the failed cables (although deterioration existed in all of them) were swaying sideways on a fulcrum or pivot point that was the exit hole.

 

[treevet]

Ran into this old school cable I used to see around a lot. Nothing much wrong with it except it has no thimble and is rather conspicuous with the turnbuckle.

It must be in for over 6 years as I have been the only arb on the convent in that period.

 

[treevet]

Here is another view just for the pict. In this tree I also found a 5/16 cable (don't know why they downsized) that was properly spliced and thimbled and one side had grown over the lag and the other side was still well exposed. No turnbuckle on this one for some reason.

Also found on one lag that another cable had been attached to the same lag but only the splice and thimble was still there. Either the lead fell off (more likely scenario) or it had died and been removed and the cable was clipped at the splice.

 

[treevet]