oldirty
Addicted to ArboristSite
looks like you did man! congrats.
and its ol dirty.
but no offense taken. lol
ol dirty
and its ol dirty.
but no offense taken. lol
ol dirty
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jomoco
Tree Freak
Surprising amount of misinformation here
In my conversation today with Bob Rouse of TCIA he stated that riding the hook of a crane has always been accepted practice in the U.S., except for California, though CAL OSHA changed that some three years ago, so that now it is accepted practice throughout all of the U.S.
If you guys do not accept either my word on the matter or that of TCIA, Marco Crane, Maxim Crane, Don Blair or other associates of mine, well I guess there's little else to say.
I will say that it is up to each individual crane company whether or not to allow a climber to tie off on their hook, this makes good sense in that you would never want to tie off on the hook of an operator with no experience in tree take down with a crane.
Fortunately for me I have a long list of experienced and professional operators from which to choose, be it Dave Walcott of Atlas Tree or Steve Pennel of Marco Crane, these guys are good!
There is an interesting discussion on this subject between TCIA and Calif. government officials at the link below.
http://www.dir.ca.gov/OSHsb/treeclimbingandaccessFSOR.pdf
Respectfully,
jomoco
In my conversation today with Bob Rouse of TCIA he stated that riding the hook of a crane has always been accepted practice in the U.S., except for California, though CAL OSHA changed that some three years ago, so that now it is accepted practice throughout all of the U.S.
If you guys do not accept either my word on the matter or that of TCIA, Marco Crane, Maxim Crane, Don Blair or other associates of mine, well I guess there's little else to say.
I will say that it is up to each individual crane company whether or not to allow a climber to tie off on their hook, this makes good sense in that you would never want to tie off on the hook of an operator with no experience in tree take down with a crane.
Fortunately for me I have a long list of experienced and professional operators from which to choose, be it Dave Walcott of Atlas Tree or Steve Pennel of Marco Crane, these guys are good!
There is an interesting discussion on this subject between TCIA and Calif. government officials at the link below.
http://www.dir.ca.gov/OSHsb/treeclimbingandaccessFSOR.pdf
Respectfully,
jomoco
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Climb020
ArboristSite Operative
5.7.8 Riding the load line of a crane while it is under load tension shall be prohibited for circumstances outlined in sebsection 5.7.9.11.
So you can ride up and ride with load only when it creates a greater rish then being tried into the tree. But under load if you cannot
secure to the tree for each cut, use second crane, airial lift, and an adjacent tree.
So you can ride up and ride with load only when it creates a greater rish then being tried into the tree. But under load if you cannot
secure to the tree for each cut, use second crane, airial lift, and an adjacent tree.
diltree
ArboristSite Guru
Jomoco,
You brought up ansi standards; you have misinterpreted them. All written regulations by ansi or osha state that you can tie into the boom or the line. More specifically the boom tip or a friction hitch attached to the cable above the load hook. Again I ask you, where does It say to tie onto the load hook, I gave you your TCIA link for ansi regulations, simply cut and paste the quote and prove me wrong.
I will agree with you that tieing onto the load hook is an excepted practice among climbers but if you want to start quoting ansi you better get your facts straight. By osha and ansi standards tieing in off of the load hook is forbidden.
You brought up ansi standards; you have misinterpreted them. All written regulations by ansi or osha state that you can tie into the boom or the line. More specifically the boom tip or a friction hitch attached to the cable above the load hook. Again I ask you, where does It say to tie onto the load hook, I gave you your TCIA link for ansi regulations, simply cut and paste the quote and prove me wrong.
I will agree with you that tieing onto the load hook is an excepted practice among climbers but if you want to start quoting ansi you better get your facts straight. By osha and ansi standards tieing in off of the load hook is forbidden.
jomoco
Tree Freak
How many times are you going to be wrong?
The ball and hook are integral to the load line, common sense and the fact that when a man basket is attached to the load line it hangs from the hook, should be obvious indications that what I'm saying is true, as per ANSI Z133 standards.
Read my post prior to this one, follow the link I give on the written minutes of a debate between TCIA and CAL OSHA in which they discuss this very subject. These conversations should enlighten your understanding of the subject.
I don't mean to be rude, I'm trying to be accurate.
Respectfully,
jomoco
The ball and hook are integral to the load line, common sense and the fact that when a man basket is attached to the load line it hangs from the hook, should be obvious indications that what I'm saying is true, as per ANSI Z133 standards.
Read my post prior to this one, follow the link I give on the written minutes of a debate between TCIA and CAL OSHA in which they discuss this very subject. These conversations should enlighten your understanding of the subject.
I don't mean to be rude, I'm trying to be accurate.
Respectfully,
jomoco
diltree
ArboristSite Guru
Although the August 12, 2004 advisory committee members discussed provisions in the ANZI Z133.1 standard that permit a qualified tree worker/arborist to be secured directly to the crane boom, the proposed amendments for Section 3427(a)(1) do not permit that practice. TCIA’s representative at the committee meeting explained that it is believed that in some cases, being secured to the boom provided more mobility for the tree worker. The committee also discussed that the preferred method or most common method is being secured above the headache ball. The committee agreed that being secured to the crane boom raised safety issues (e.g., movement of the boom and boom extension with a tree worker attached), and it was agreed that the provision was unnecessary for inclusion in the proposal. TCIA representatives still expressed concern regarding the potential that the tree worker’s safety line could roll out of the crane’s hook while being suspended from it.
Proposed modifications eliminate language referring to a crane’s “closed safety type” hook, which is not a defined term and raised clarity issues for some advisory committee members. The proposed modifications require that the crane hook be closed with a positive locking device and also requires the tree worker saddle to be secured to an independent line attached above the crane hook. It is believed that these modifications will address TCIA’s concerns.
Proposed modifications eliminate language referring to a crane’s “closed safety type” hook, which is not a defined term and raised clarity issues for some advisory committee members. The proposed modifications require that the crane hook be closed with a positive locking device and also requires the tree worker saddle to be secured to an independent line attached above the crane hook. It is believed that these modifications will address TCIA’s concerns.
diltree
ArboristSite Guru
"The proposed modifications require that the crane hook be closed with a positive locking device and also requires the tree worker saddle to be secured to an independent line attached above the crane hook."
Jomco,
All I asked was the ansi standard that said you could tie into the hook, not tie into the hook if your tied to the line above the hook too....its easy cut and paste and prove me wrong, like I cut and pasted your debate!
I found this to be very interesting...you can tie into the load hook, if you are tied into and independent line above the load hook. hmmmm
Interesting debate........but still only a debate, not a new ansi regulation stating you can tie into the hook...... by the way, the line and the load hook are separate entities as tre the terms line and loadline, your common sense fails you.....I'm gonna guess your not a licensed class 1 hoisting engineer, nor have you received any certification from the national commission of crane operators.....your just a guy that rents a crane to cut trees that has been tieing into the hook for years. You keep telling people they are wrong but fail to post proof.....all BS
not trying to be rude...just accurate
Jomco,
All I asked was the ansi standard that said you could tie into the hook, not tie into the hook if your tied to the line above the hook too....its easy cut and paste and prove me wrong, like I cut and pasted your debate!
I found this to be very interesting...you can tie into the load hook, if you are tied into and independent line above the load hook. hmmmm
Interesting debate........but still only a debate, not a new ansi regulation stating you can tie into the hook...... by the way, the line and the load hook are separate entities as tre the terms line and loadline, your common sense fails you.....I'm gonna guess your not a licensed class 1 hoisting engineer, nor have you received any certification from the national commission of crane operators.....your just a guy that rents a crane to cut trees that has been tieing into the hook for years. You keep telling people they are wrong but fail to post proof.....all BS
not trying to be rude...just accurate
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jomoco
Tree Freak
Rude and wrong
Again, I invite you to call Bob Rouse or Peter Gerstenberger at TCIA and put the question to them as I did, however when you don't get the answer you're looking for, I suggest you leave your rude BS comments out of the conversation, just listen and learn.
I believe that the reason their actual language in the standard is somewhat ambiguous on the accepted tie in point relates to the possibility of an inexperienced climber tying into the hook and not removing his or her line before the operator puts pressure on the piece being lifted, if the climbing line was under the attachment rigging for the piece, it is possible that the tremendous pressure applied could cut the climbing line in half. This is one of the many reasons they prohibit tying off to a load line under load.
The ISA link below is somewhat ambiguous on this point, but more so in picture than in word. I suggest you read the article carefully, then call Bob Rouse on monday.
http://www.isa-arbor.com/publications/pdfs/zpart2.pdf
Respectfully,
jomoco
Again, I invite you to call Bob Rouse or Peter Gerstenberger at TCIA and put the question to them as I did, however when you don't get the answer you're looking for, I suggest you leave your rude BS comments out of the conversation, just listen and learn.
I believe that the reason their actual language in the standard is somewhat ambiguous on the accepted tie in point relates to the possibility of an inexperienced climber tying into the hook and not removing his or her line before the operator puts pressure on the piece being lifted, if the climbing line was under the attachment rigging for the piece, it is possible that the tremendous pressure applied could cut the climbing line in half. This is one of the many reasons they prohibit tying off to a load line under load.
The ISA link below is somewhat ambiguous on this point, but more so in picture than in word. I suggest you read the article carefully, then call Bob Rouse on monday.
http://www.isa-arbor.com/publications/pdfs/zpart2.pdf
Respectfully,
jomoco
diltree
ArboristSite Guru
Ansi 133Z
“A qualified arborist may be hoisted into position utilizing the crane, provided that he/she is tied in with an arborist climbing line and arborist saddle meeting the requirements of this Standard and secured to a designated anchor point on the boom or line.
OSHA 3427 Safe work procedures
"A qualified tree worker may be histed into position useing a approved tree workers saddle. Secured to a cranes hook that shall be closed with a positive locking device, the tree workers saddle shall also be secured to an independent line attached above the crane hook"
Both statments indicate that you must be tied to the line above the hook, and can only tie into the hook if you have a seperate line tied in above the hook....How can I get more clear with you...you said ansi stated you could tie into the hook, you come on here acting like some sort of authority, telling people they are wrong, and rude, with no evidence to support your claims, only that your friends at TCIA said its ok....Does TCIA stand for "The crane industry association"? you really believe the TCIA is the authority on crane work? State you opinions, back them up with facts, and dont tell people they are wrong unless you have the answers which clearly you dont...
Im done with this thread...peace Jomoco
“A qualified arborist may be hoisted into position utilizing the crane, provided that he/she is tied in with an arborist climbing line and arborist saddle meeting the requirements of this Standard and secured to a designated anchor point on the boom or line.
OSHA 3427 Safe work procedures
"A qualified tree worker may be histed into position useing a approved tree workers saddle. Secured to a cranes hook that shall be closed with a positive locking device, the tree workers saddle shall also be secured to an independent line attached above the crane hook"
Both statments indicate that you must be tied to the line above the hook, and can only tie into the hook if you have a seperate line tied in above the hook....How can I get more clear with you...you said ansi stated you could tie into the hook, you come on here acting like some sort of authority, telling people they are wrong, and rude, with no evidence to support your claims, only that your friends at TCIA said its ok....Does TCIA stand for "The crane industry association"? you really believe the TCIA is the authority on crane work? State you opinions, back them up with facts, and dont tell people they are wrong unless you have the answers which clearly you dont...
Im done with this thread...peace Jomoco
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OTG BOSTON
Addicted to ArboristSite
jomoco your comeback for everything seems to be, call so-and-so, but you can't back it up with facts. diltree even called you out on your credentials and you had no response except ask this guy and that guy. I need good hard facts as quoted by ANZI, untill then you will not see me tieing in to a hook.
BTW poor form to post peoples names here, I know it would piss me off if you did it to me.
BTW poor form to post peoples names here, I know it would piss me off if you did it to me.
jomoco
Tree Freak
Good ole boys club
I get it, it's just fine for you " PROFESSIONALS " to post misinformation for the beginners to suck up, then when I call you on it, the good ole boys form a circle and shout their pitiful chorus... TCIA who's that, what do they know?
Well obviously alot more than some.
jomoco
I get it, it's just fine for you " PROFESSIONALS " to post misinformation for the beginners to suck up, then when I call you on it, the good ole boys form a circle and shout their pitiful chorus... TCIA who's that, what do they know?
Well obviously alot more than some.
jomoco
OTG BOSTON
Addicted to ArboristSite
jomoco
Tree Freak
Z133.1 Safety Standard,
2006: Using Cranes
Safely By Steve Chisholm, H. Dennis P. Ryan, and Peter
Gerstenberger
It may be of some interest for you guys to note the following:
1. I did not jump into this thread until Begely ( a moderator ) posted misinformation, stating it was illegal to tie off onto the loadline of a crane to enter a tree.
2. When I pointed out that this was untrue, the good ole boys rallied round the flag with the misinformation that the Z standard link that I supplied required a climber to tie off above the crane ball etc.
3. Rather than pointlessly arguing with misinformed members of this board, I contacted the individual members of the commitee that actually wrote the standard. They are: Steve Chisholm, Dennis Ryan, Peter Gerstenberger, and
Don Blair primarily.
Each and every one of these men have personally informed me that it is perfectly acceptable to tie off onto the hook of a crane provided that the hook has a locked gate.
As a practical matter, I myself use two seperate 3/4 inch clevis' on the hook,
one for my rigging, the other for my climbing line, both on the hook with the gate locked with a bolt. This ensures that my climbing line is seperate from and cannot be damaged by pressures or entanglement with the rigging hardware.
In my discussions with both Blair and Chisholm, the subject of the questionability of the practical safety aspects of tying off above the ball come up. This is because tying off above the ball takes the swiveling mechanism of the hook out of the climbers attachment point, this can lead to tangled lines and frustration, perhaps even danger. This makes the hook with a locking gate a safer and more practical tie in point.
When a climber riding the crane hook is being positioned for a pick he will generally set his choker, then signal the crane operator to spool up enough to snug the choker into place to ensure it is set and stays put, then the climber will rappel down on his line, attach his lanyard, pull his line out of the clevis on the hook and retie onto the tree as a safety escape just in case.
Then he can signal the crane operator to apply the proper amount of pressure to the loadline for a smmooth pick.
I am simply pointing out that there is enough misinformation in this business flying around on the internet already, adding to it on this site is not conducive to learning or tree industry professionalism in general.
Respectfully,
jomoco
OTG BOSTON
Addicted to ArboristSite
this I can understand
I appreciate you coming back with this. Just so you understand where I was coming from, your previous posts were unclear at best. I know you took a bit of abuse here but your final post clearly sums up what you were trying to get across in the first place, Thanks for sticking with it!
I am in no way afffiliated with any East Coast/West Coast B-S! Just look at what happend to Tupac and Biggie...................
I am on a committee with one of the guys mention, I will follow up and re-enforce your stance. Now lets see what dill has to say..........................:hmm3grin2orange:
I appreciate you coming back with this. Just so you understand where I was coming from, your previous posts were unclear at best. I know you took a bit of abuse here but your final post clearly sums up what you were trying to get across in the first place, Thanks for sticking with it!
I am in no way afffiliated with any East Coast/West Coast B-S! Just look at what happend to Tupac and Biggie...................
I am on a committee with one of the guys mention, I will follow up and re-enforce your stance. Now lets see what dill has to say..........................:hmm3grin2orange:
diltree
ArboristSite Guru
Mis-Information.....I simply quoted the ansi and osha standard verbatim....now your saying if the hook has a locked gate its ok, well my cranes dont have locked gates so that would not apply to me.......Its funny because I'm currently taking a class to become a certified OSHA trainer, so I can personally certify my employees for their mandatory OSHA 10.
The OSHA instructor specified that the climber can only tie into the hook if he is tied in above the ball with a separate line as well; I'm not going to post the instructors name because thats just bad form. I will say this, if there is an accident on my job site, the TCIA will not be sending an investigator and fining my company; that task will be left to OSHA. In the same sense my Workman's comp. inspector(who is also an OSHA inspector) will not be going over TCIA safety protocol when he visits our job site this year to observe our work practices.
Jomoco, I'm sure you have a few days a year were you rent a crane and pic a few palm trees off Santiago beach, and if you want to tie into just the hook thats fine with me. I own and operate two cranes and a full service tree care operation, and as you can imagine with over 10 employees our Workman's comp. is pretty expensive. So until I see in writing that riding the hook is the new standard, I'm going to stick with what my comp. inspector OKs as an accepted practice.
The OSHA instructor specified that the climber can only tie into the hook if he is tied in above the ball with a separate line as well; I'm not going to post the instructors name because thats just bad form. I will say this, if there is an accident on my job site, the TCIA will not be sending an investigator and fining my company; that task will be left to OSHA. In the same sense my Workman's comp. inspector(who is also an OSHA inspector) will not be going over TCIA safety protocol when he visits our job site this year to observe our work practices.
Jomoco, I'm sure you have a few days a year were you rent a crane and pic a few palm trees off Santiago beach, and if you want to tie into just the hook thats fine with me. I own and operate two cranes and a full service tree care operation, and as you can imagine with over 10 employees our Workman's comp. is pretty expensive. So until I see in writing that riding the hook is the new standard, I'm going to stick with what my comp. inspector OKs as an accepted practice.
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DonnyO
ArboristSite Operative
Oh s#!t, the gloves are definatelty off now!
opcorn:
opcorn:
jomoco
Tree Freak
Mistaken assumptions
Your mistaken assumptions reguarding my crane experience only high lights your tendancy to be both rude and wrong on this subject.
You may think that a ten man tree operation that uses cranes with nonlocking gates on your hooks qualifies you to speak intelligently on this matter, however it illustrates just the opposite. I feel sorry for the climber below your hook that gets creamed when your rigging hardware comes off that hook and brains him.
The following OSHA guideline may be of interest to you:
DEPARTMENT OF LABOR
Occupational Safety and Health Administration
29 CFR part 1926
Stars indicate important sections
(Docket No. S-409)
Crane or Derrick Suspended Personnel Platforms (Continued)
(B) The number of employees occupying the personnel platform shall not exceed the number required for the work being performed.
(C) Personnel platforms shall be used only for employees, their tools, and the materials necessary to do their work, and shall not be used to hoist only materials or tools when not hoisting personnel.
(D) Materials and tools for use during a personnel lift shall be secured to prevent displacement.
(E) Materials and tools for use during a personnel lift shall be evenly distributed within the confines of the platform while the platform is suspended.
(iv) Rigging.
(A) When a wire rope bridle is used to connect the personnel platform to the load line, each bridle leg shall be connected to a master link or shackle in such a manner to ensure that the load is evenly divided among the bridle legs.
(B) Hooks on overhaul ball assemblies, lower load blocks, or other attachment assemblies shall be of a type that can be closed and locked, eliminating the hook throat opening. Alternatively, an alloy anchor type shackle with a bolt, nut and retaining pin may be used.
(C) Wire rope, shackles, rings, master links, and other rigging hardware must be capable of supporting, without failure, at least five times the maximum intended load applied or transmitted to that component. Where rotation resistant rope is used, the slings shall be capable of supporting without failure at least ten times the maximum intended load.
(D) All eyes in wire rope slings shall be fabricated with thimbles.
(E) Bridles and associated rigging for attaching the personnel platform to the hoist line shall be used only for the platform and the necessary employees, their tools and the materials necessary to do their work, and shall not be used for any other purpose when not hoisting personnel.
I find your assumptions about me merely annoying, however your assumption that the recognized tree experts that actually wrote the ANSI Z133 standards for crane use in the tree industry are somehow mistaken is offensive to a wide range of tree experts including me.
I respectfully suggest you change out your crane hooks for the new Johnson locking gate hooks for the safety of the climbers you employ.
Safety First
jomoco
Your mistaken assumptions reguarding my crane experience only high lights your tendancy to be both rude and wrong on this subject.
You may think that a ten man tree operation that uses cranes with nonlocking gates on your hooks qualifies you to speak intelligently on this matter, however it illustrates just the opposite. I feel sorry for the climber below your hook that gets creamed when your rigging hardware comes off that hook and brains him.
The following OSHA guideline may be of interest to you:
DEPARTMENT OF LABOR
Occupational Safety and Health Administration
29 CFR part 1926
Stars indicate important sections
(Docket No. S-409)
Crane or Derrick Suspended Personnel Platforms (Continued)
(B) The number of employees occupying the personnel platform shall not exceed the number required for the work being performed.
(C) Personnel platforms shall be used only for employees, their tools, and the materials necessary to do their work, and shall not be used to hoist only materials or tools when not hoisting personnel.
(D) Materials and tools for use during a personnel lift shall be secured to prevent displacement.
(E) Materials and tools for use during a personnel lift shall be evenly distributed within the confines of the platform while the platform is suspended.
(iv) Rigging.
(A) When a wire rope bridle is used to connect the personnel platform to the load line, each bridle leg shall be connected to a master link or shackle in such a manner to ensure that the load is evenly divided among the bridle legs.
(B) Hooks on overhaul ball assemblies, lower load blocks, or other attachment assemblies shall be of a type that can be closed and locked, eliminating the hook throat opening. Alternatively, an alloy anchor type shackle with a bolt, nut and retaining pin may be used.
(C) Wire rope, shackles, rings, master links, and other rigging hardware must be capable of supporting, without failure, at least five times the maximum intended load applied or transmitted to that component. Where rotation resistant rope is used, the slings shall be capable of supporting without failure at least ten times the maximum intended load.
(D) All eyes in wire rope slings shall be fabricated with thimbles.
(E) Bridles and associated rigging for attaching the personnel platform to the hoist line shall be used only for the platform and the necessary employees, their tools and the materials necessary to do their work, and shall not be used for any other purpose when not hoisting personnel.
I find your assumptions about me merely annoying, however your assumption that the recognized tree experts that actually wrote the ANSI Z133 standards for crane use in the tree industry are somehow mistaken is offensive to a wide range of tree experts including me.
I respectfully suggest you change out your crane hooks for the new Johnson locking gate hooks for the safety of the climbers you employ.
Safety First
jomoco
diltree
ArboristSite Guru
Its a good thing my climbers don't use the hook at all, they either tie into the boom tip or a friction hitch attached to the line. What a Jamoco you are!
diltree
ArboristSite Guru
Jamoco.."Your mistaken assumptions reguarding my crane experience only high lights your tendancy to be both rude and wrong on this subject."
Jamoco, I hope your experience regarding cranes is less then or equal too your inability to spell; your failure to exhibit English verbal skills will ultimately warrant a tragedy when performing tree removal with another intellectual individual in the industry.
Jamoco, I hope your experience regarding cranes is less then or equal too your inability to spell; your failure to exhibit English verbal skills will ultimately warrant a tragedy when performing tree removal with another intellectual individual in the industry.
DonnyO
ArboristSite Operative
S#!t jomoco, all of your long winded posts have yet to prove anything to anyone!
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