Salvage Logging after the Wild Fires.

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Randy Spade

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I help manage a 2,000+ acre ranch in Northern California. We were hit hard by the recent fires and have salvage logging scheduled to start soon and I have a few questions.
My main concern is getting fairly paid for the logs. Any tips would be appreciated.

The ranch owner has just turned everything over to a forester and trusts him to take care of everything. I'm a little more skeptical.

I had a small plot logged a 10+ years ago and I was told to "watch those guys" and to count all the trucks going out. I took pictures of each load and that seemed to upset the loggers. Then at the end they ask if they could sell some of "their logs" under my permit??? When I ask how I would work the income taxes out on that they dropped the subject.

How close do I need to watch these guys?
Will the number of truck loads be listed in the final paperwork or just the board feet?
How many board feet will a large logging truck hold? I know this will vary, but a rough idea would help.
We were told all the logs would be marked as ours. When does that marking occur?

I will say that the guys we have coming are well regarded and I was told to "watch" the guys that did my logging years ago so I do feel better about that.

Again any tips or advice would be appreciated. Thanks
 
watch them, count the trucks and count the logs, take pictures. Can't trust much of anything now days. hopefully the tally coincides at the end.
 
Guys in California that can help better.
Road weights can very also. There is volume bf and usable bf.
The logs should have to be stamped before they leave (hammer stamp) or that's big trouble
 
The brand on the logs identifies the sale...in this case your employer. The brand can be any combination of letters, numbers, or both. It's specific to that sale only. The logs are marked before they leave the landing.

A rough rule of thumb...very rough...is five thousand board feet per truck. In weight...again a rough estimate...is 25 tons. Loads will vary in weight and board feet with species.

Are you getting paid by the ton or by the board foot? Either way there will be a mill ticket for each load delivered to whatever mill or mills your logs go to. Each load is weighed or spread out on the ground and scaled. Scaling is measuring every log and figuring the board footage in each. You are entitled to a copy. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

There is also a load ticket for each truck load, usually made out by the driver or the loader, that identifies the sale, the trucking company, the mill delivered to, and the species. As with the mill ticket, you're entitled to a copy.
If you're getting paid by the ton it's easy to keep track of what's delivered. If you're getting paid by the board foot you'll be dealing with gross scale and net scale. It's a little complicated but net scale is what the mill pays you for after deducting for defect in the logs.

Is the forester working directly for the landowner or is he a forester employed by the mill who buys the logs? If he works for the mill he probably won't cheat you outright but you can sure that any advantage price wise will go to the mill.

Also, make sure that any remediation of the area logged is spelled out in the contract. Pay very careful attention to who pays for what.
 
Thanks, Gologit good explanation.
I'm pretty sure we are getting paid by the board foot. As long as there is a ticket for each truck load I think we will be fine. I think we will be looking at a few hundred truck loads so it will be a challenge to keep count, but we can come pretty close.
 
Gologit nailed it, it helps hes from Cali...

up here there are no required stamps unless its DNR or FS ground, private ground is fairly loose as to regulation as far a transport goes permitting is a whole different world.

That said, reputable loggers know their reputation rides on how they perform, and shouldnt be adverse to prying questions about operations and the handling of payment and load tickets.

That said someone on your end should get a ticket from the truck or the loader, to be honest though, I rarely get 2 copies of the tickets, so I generally hang on to em to be produced as needed if and when a land owner asks for em, which is rarely btw. Again though on a big job there could easily be 10-20 loads a day, so just tracking the trucks could be a full time gig

There are jerk wads out there that think they can slip one by now and again, they make life a bit of a Hel for the rest of us, luckily they tend to not last long, hard to get work when folks think your a crook.

Anyway, straight trucks get around 5k board feet, self loaders in the 3.5-4.5k, but take that with a grain of salt cause logs and loads are variable to a great extent, dry logs are lighter so they can get more on a truck, but only to a certain height, species have different mass to em so its all pretty variable

As to trucking, the big rumor is that trucks will stop by their home and roll a few off save enough to make a load and take em in on their own ticket, but frankly, its not worth the time or the machine sitting to bother with, seriously though every self loader jockey except one around here has accused the others of this ****, its petty and weird, Ive been to most of their houses and can say its simply not true, partly cause theres too much junk and spare parts to bother with logs...
 
Gologit has it right. From my experience every one on the way are looking to skim a little. The mills I dealt with were trying their best to find every flaw they could to to limit their expenses. Every project will get a stamping code to mark the logs as they leave to be allowed use of the State highways. When the trucks arrive at the mill a ticket will be made and should make a copy if requested. Weight can vary tremendously so weight often will be an indication, but BR is BF. Generally the CHP will raise red flags if they see unmarked logs being transported. Transporting logs from unknown areas is a very big deal because of possible infestation of insects so it is likely not going to happen. If it is convenient to take pictures of every single unit going out it would not hurt to do so. I have heard of guys cutting the ends off of a load or two to remark them for their own benefit, but seems not so probable. A 14' log will often measure close to 15' so that the mill is not stuck with a 14' that has checking on both ends. So with logs always slightly longer than the requirements need to be there is often room to remark them. Thanks
 
Wow! Quite the discrepancy on BF between the US and BC. Like triple+
per truck.? That's weird.
I'm no contract logger or logger for that matter but 40 m3 is the average here.
Just under 425BF per m3.
4,250 per 10m3 x 4 =17,000BF

I found this a little puzzling so I googled how many cubic metres on a truck in BC.

First one says 40m3 average.

I go on to a thread for WA state max
and all the US guys, they say the same as above....4 to 5000bf or 5 to 7 or depends if it a self loader ect. Same as above.
Ok a BC guy shows a pic of his 6 axel. Tandem drive, tri-axel trailer (Peterbilt).

He said there is about 42 m3 on the truck. He said I can saw 1000BF from every 3.5 m3. That's just under 1,500BF. He does the math 3.5 into 42
So 12,000 BF of product. So 1/3 waist.
18,000BF load. Looked like nice uniform wood btw.

Further on down the page buddy comes on down saying a can confirm his numbers. He said..."My last customer just dropped off a load of Fir and Western Larch we scaled at 45 m3., he had 5 m3 set aside in logs and I milled the rest (40m3) My actual pay was for 12,200BF.
About 19,000BF+ on the truck

FWIW....another guy said 32 to 38m3 with a self loader. One or two less when the sap is running.

Big big big different.
 
Wow! Quite the discrepancy on BF between the US and BC. Like triple+
per truck.? That's weird.
I'm no contract logger or logger for that matter but 40 m3 is the average here.
Just under 425BF per m3.
4,250 per 10m3 x 4 =17,000BF

I found this a little puzzling so I googled how many cubic metres on a truck in BC.

First one says 40m3 average.

I go on to a thread for WA state max
and all the US guys, they say the same as above....4 to 5000bf or 5 to 7 or depends if it a self loader ect. Same as above.
Ok a BC guy shows a pic of his 6 axel. Tandem drive, tri-axel trailer (Peterbilt).

He said there is about 42 m3 on the truck. He said I can saw 1000BF from every 3.5 m3. That's just under 1,500BF. He does the math 3.5 into 42
So 12,000 BF of product. So 1/3 waist.
18,000BF load. Looked like nice uniform wood btw.

Further on down the page buddy comes on down saying a can confirm his numbers. He said..."My last customer just dropped off a load of Fir and Western Larch we scaled at 45 m3., he had 5 m3 set aside in logs and I milled the rest (40m3) My actual pay was for 12,200BF.
About 19,000BF+ on the truck

FWIW....another guy said 32 to 38m3 with a self loader. One or two less when the sap is running.

Big big big different.

Interesting!
I think we have about 40-50m3 on average, depending on how dry the wood is. Max weight for the truck is 64 tons in total.
 
So... 1sq M is about 10.7 feet, multiply that by 12 to get board feet per meter, or.

10.7x12=128.4

128.4x40=5136bf

It's a math/ancient way of measurement thing bf is 12"x12"x1" or .0929sg M
You do realize you only calculated a Sq metre (m2) 12" thick right?
Under 1/3 of a m3.
10.7 x 39".4 for m3 to bf. Round off
 
So... the only thing I can think of. And granted it's real early... is a difference in how the logs are scaled i.e. we use scribner C which only accounts for usable boards on the small end of the log, any overage is where the mill makes proffit... supposedly.... it does not account for any wastage.

I assume... that cubic meter scales whole log, fat end to little end etc, or it works off weight some how? We don't use it here so its largely a guess.

That said, what's the rate per M3?
 
If they are using self loaders then a good load of good size logs is 2200-2600 bf and standard log truck in same timber 4500-5000 bf. Just make sure every log gets your brand on it and make sure there is a log count on every load that goes out. Hire your own person to "fire watch" and make sure trucks are branded and accounted for and YOU WILL KNOW HOW MANY LOADS you get and the mills sheets will have BF listed. Good luck!
 
the smaller the piece count per load the higher the BF per load so take that into consideration as well. 20 log load is good timber and will get you better BF then a 30 or 35 piece load. etc etc good luck and that land owner will have a nice check when this is done! LOL! Did they say what the price is per thousand?
 

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