Secondary Burn

[Cerran]

Actually I'm not...
My previous "furnace" was a modified smoke dragon "stove"... basically, I built a plenum around it and forced air through it. It worked just fine to heat my home for years... it burned on a grate. I did the same modification with the PE and it failed miserably. The fireboxes were the same size (actually the PE was just a touch bigger), although different in shape... the smoke dragon was a little longer, but narrower. From a size perspective they were as close to identical as two (different) stoves can be. Sure, my current "furnace" outperforms my old (converted) one... but my old converted one was 10-times more effective than the converted PE. My comparisons are based more in that than anything else.

And, by-the-way, I converted the PE back into a stove before moving it into the shop... it didn't change the burning characteristics one iota.

So in essence your complaint is that your PE stove didn't work for a purpose it wasn't intended for? Firebox size alone is not a good metric for comparing stoves, especially ones with different combustion technologies.

 

[brenndatomu]

Essentially the entire conversation has been irrelevant.

And BEAT TO DEATH! (where's that dead horse smilie we used to have?!)

I'd like to know how people are getting 6-8+hr burn time with an EPA box...

Lots. Heck, I can get 6-7 hrs usable heat out of my tiny lil 1.2 CF stove on Ash, Oak, whatever. Never fed 'er any Hedge...yet Not sure how big your stove is but I bet it is bigger than mine so you should be able to get 8 hours easily unless your heat load is too high and you're running the crud out of it to keep up.

 

[brenndatomu]

Second, I don't "damper down" my smoke dragon, I don't adjust anything.

So there is no damper on the intake of the draft blower? It can suck as much air as it wants through the blower? Man, the Yukon Big Jack (which is a VERY similar unit to yours) I had would have been a molten puddle if the intake was not damped down a lil. And if you "load it light" it just ran out of fuel in 2 hours. I gotta say I'm a bit intrigued by your SOP as my sister, who has my old Yukon, has not yet "dialed in" the day to day operation of it. It either is hot or cold in their house...running it the way I did only halfway worked for them.

 

[Whitespider]

Perhaps because once again you insist on using terms that already have meanings in your own unique way - in this case not a technical term but the slang "smoke dragon" which is not what you have.

Perhaps you should go back and read the thread when I got this furnace a little over a year ago. I'd never heard the term "smoke dragon" until I joined-up here. And it weren't me that labeled my furnace a "smoke dragon"... it was couple dozen or so members that were convinced I was gonna' cause the sky to fall 'cause I didn't get something with elitist technology.
I didn't make up the stupid term, I didn't define its meaning, and I didn't label my furnace as one‼

Comparing a secondary combustion stove to a forced draft furnace is not at all the same as comparing one to an earlier stove design. Having used a smoke dragon I often wondered why your experiences seemed so different from my revollection. It's because you were describing something completely different.

The box I had before the PE was what you are (now) redefining(?) as a smoke dragon... and it weren't my first by any stretch‼

So in essence your complaint is that your PE stove didn't work for a purpose it wasn't intended for? Firebox size alone is not a good metric for comparing stoves, especially ones with different combustion technologies.

WTF ever... now were back to the excuses.
So I suppose there ain't any "furnaces" with secondary combustion?? Give me a break‼

It really sounds like your stove is undersized for your application if you're having that much trouble.

Boy... if I only had a nickle for every time I've read that excuse on this board.
Why is it so friggin' hard to believe that the elitist technology just flat ain't always the best choice for every application under all conditions??
Why is that so friggin' hard to believe??
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[Chris-PA]

The box I had before the PE was what you are (now) redefining(?) as a smoke dragon... and it weren't my first by any stretch‼

Did that system have any kind of active control system regulating air into the firebox or any forced air into the firebox?

Was that the system you could just "open the door every 6-12 hours (depending), toss some wood in, slam the door" and keep your house at a constant temp with no adjustments with a firebox no bigger than the Spectrum's? Or is that the new wood furnace that has continual automatic control?

 

[Whitespider]

brenndatomu,
If I'm rememberin' the settings correctly (I messed with it a bit before getting it where I wanted it), I adjusted the limit controller for the draft blower so it shuts down when air jacket temperature reaches 175°, and starts back up when it drops to 155°. That keeps the firebox from overheating... and drastically reduced fuel consumption when the t-stat is callin' for heat (cause the draft blower is cycling). Yeah, the draft blower has a swinging gate like thing on it, I've never used it, it's wide open. Actually, I've bumped so many times with the ash drawer it's bent and loose, just swings free... wouldn't stay closed if I wanted it to. I'm gonna' drill out the rivet and toss it one of these days.
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[Whitespider]

Chris-PA,
I just explained that old one was a bit trickier to load and run in post #88... but, yeah, other than opening the flue damper to load the thing, I opened the door, loaded, and slammed the door. It had an adjustable combustion air intake on the door... but after I got it set where I wanted it, I never once touched it for years. Here, I'll reproduce what I posted...

My previous (homemade) smoke dragon(s) didn't have any automatic air adjustment, but the circulation blower was automatic. They were a bit trickery to load and run... meaning the learning curve took a little longer and it was easier to make a mistake and overload, especially early in the season. Those used a flue damper for control... you opened it fully to load the thing (or flame bellowed out the door), and then you closed it based on expected heat demand/fuel load/ambient conditions. Once you caught-on, it became second nature... no big deal.
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[Locust Cutter]

And you're not baking yourself out of your house? How big of a space are you trying to heat?

Mainly I'm trying to heat a 14x24 room. All totaled, I'm trying to "warm" about 850-900sqft. We positioned the stove in a corner on a 45° out towards our 14' x 24' living room. We tiled in the corner from floor to ceiling going outward 8' West and South. The floor is also tiled all the way across the room (E-W) for additional heat mass and protection from the elements when bringing wood in, guarding against embers, etc. It has airflow exposure to around 850-900 sqft. Granted, its a 2-story house so heat is rising, but the total affected area (where the temp difference is noticeable when the stove is in use) is around 1400sqft, maybe. There's a fan in back of the unit which is used on low to help blow heat off of the tile into the room. The fan negatively affects the stove though as it cools the bottom of the box even more. And NO, it doesn't run us out unless ts shoulder season. The room its in is also insulated VERY well as that's the newest part of the house and was re-insulated/tyvec'ed, etc after a small tornado decided to partially destroy my siding on the West and North sides of my house...

 

[brenndatomu]

Yeah, the draft blower has a swinging gate like thing on it, I've never used it, it's wide open. Actually, I've bumped so many times with the ash drawer it's bent and loose, just swings free... wouldn't stay closed if I wanted it to. I'm gonna' drill out the rivet and toss it one of these days.

Yeah, the one on my old Yukon was loose too. I drilled the rivet out and replaced it with a long screw/spring/wing-nut. That holds the door where you place it but allows it to "float" if bumped.

Hmm, I may hafta think about puttin a temp limit switch on the draft blower for them....

 

[Chris-PA]

It had an adjustable combustion air intake on the door... but after I got it set where I wanted it, I never once touched it for years.

Fixed air inlet and draft control through the burn, a firebox no bigger than the Spectrum, enough heat output to keep your place at a constant 70deg temperature in very cold weather, and 6-12hr burn times. Air inlet from under the fire through a grate.

Magic.

 

[Whitespider]

Magic.

Naw... no magic... just load as needed... coals stayed screamin' hot, kept right on heatin', burned to ash and fell through the grate... just toss the next load on top of 'em.

OH... my current furnace has a flue damper also, but I never touch it because of the draft blower.
Last year after installing the furnace I got a fire goin', opened the door, closed the flue damper until I saw a bit of smoke exit the door, then slowly opened it until no smoke was exiting. I made a couple more minor adjustments to it over the next week or so... and that's where it's been set since before Thanksgiving 2013.
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[Chris-PA]

I'd like to know how people are getting 6-8+hr burn time with an EPA box... If I'm lucky and running Hedge, I might get about 4hrs. usually its 2-3 before the coals have settled down and aren't glowing as brightly. It's even less if it's windy outside.

My stove is in the basement, and I modified the ductwork of the defunct oil fired hot air system so I can use the blower to pull hot air off the top of the room and circulate it around the house.

A thermostat turns on the blower at around 80. I build a good fire before bed, maybe 9:30 or so, and the blower runs until maybe 2 or 3 in the morning. When I get up there's enough hot coals to start the next fire easily.

Early in the cycle during secondary burn that room can be 90 to 100deg. There's a lot of stone around the stove, and even once the secondary burn is winding down heat is coming back out.

It's hard to say how many hours the burn is, as they have a long tail once the secondary is done. When I want to keep the heat output up through the tail I throw a tulip or ash split on top of the coals.

It sure seems that you should get longer times of decent output with hedge.

 

[Cerran]

WTF ever... now were back to the excuses.
So I suppose there ain't any "furnaces" with secondary combustion?? Give me a break‼

Which you haven't tried.

What excuses? You're making claims that have no rational basis here. You modified a stove for a purpose for which it was never intended and complain that it didn't work. If you tried to tow your trailer with a European supercar and then complained how poorly it worked should people take your complaints seriously?

You're trying to compare a design with a forced draft fan to a design that was intended to have natural draft and then claiming the technology isn't all it's cracked up to be. It was common prior to the highly engineered designs to build a simple box and fire it really hard to get high output with little regard to efficiency which is basically what you are doing now.

Boy... if I only had a nickle for every time I've read that excuse on this board.
Why is it so friggin' hard to believe that the elitist technology just flat ain't always the best choice for every application under all conditions??
Why is that so friggin' hard to believe??

Because you never tried a stove/furnace with the right application for both technologies. Have you tried a modern wood furnace?

How many cords a year do you burn?

 

[woodchuck357]

I wonder if the difference in the amount of wood burned has anything to do with the dryness of the wood. I have heard a few people mention the older style stoves will burn wood that isn't dry enough to burn in epa cert stoves.
Testing some red oak, delivered to a neighbor as seasoned, showed it to be over 40 percent water.
I cut some red oak logs that had been laying, off the ground for 5 years, last week. They tested 63 percent water. I takes a lot of heat to drive the water out of firewood that isn't dry.

 

[Whitespider]

You're trying to compare a design with a forced draft fan to a design that was intended to have natural draft and then claiming the technology isn't all it's cracked up to be.

No I'm not... you are.
I already told you most of the comparison was with the converted "stove" I had before... and neither it or the PE had forced air draft.
I also told you the PE was unconverted and is used as "intended" in the shop... it ain't shown any improvement, even with temperatures nearing 50°. I don't like the new technology... I think it's stupid (based on more than just my stove)... get over it.

It was common prior to the highly engineered designs to build a simple box and fire it really hard to get high output with little regard to efficiency which is basically what you are doing now.

Where do I get one of these crystal balls that allows you to see what someone else is doing half way across the country??

How many cord do I burn in a year?? What year?? Which appliance?? What kind of wood??
Let's see, last year was the first year with this furnace, and it was one of the coldest and longest in decades... if I remember correctly it was something in the neighborhood of 5½ or 6 cord (I think... some of it was standing-dead elm that went directly in the house unmeasured), and that also includes what the PE burned in the shop (probably 1½ cord).
The year before was cold and long also, and I was using the PE conversion... something just over 9 cord I believe.
The year before that was pretty mild, and it was the last year with the old converted smoke dragon stove... right at 3½ cord, maybe a touch over.
And the year before that (2010/2011) was cold and snowy... I remember because I didn't have any wood put up. I hadn't been burning for a couple of years because of some lung issues my daughter was having. It was that November of 2010 I joined this site. I spent every Saturday that entire winter cutting whatever I could get to in the deep snow, standing-dead or dead and down, and dragging it to the house. Hard to say for sure because I was burning it as fast as I was cuttin' it... and a lot of it was junky-punky. Just a wild-azz-guess... something between 5 and 7 cord... maybe.

Tell ya what... give me 2 or 3 years with this appliance to get some sort of average, and I'll be able to give you a much better answer. Although, this won't be a good year for gettin' much of a feel for it. I had a big dump truck load of firebox length firewood given to me with a little bit of everything in it... everything from Box Elder to punky maple. That's all I've been burning so far, and I just tossed it in the basement as I split it... tossed it in unmeasured. Honestly... knowing, or keeping track of exactly how much I burn has never been a priority with me. I just try and make sure I have what looks like more than enough.

 

[Whitespider]

Oh... and this was the load of firewood given to me...

 

[Cerran]

No I'm not... you are.
I already told you most of the comparison was with the converted "stove" I had before... and neither it or the PE had forced air draft.
I also told you the PE was unconverted and is used as "intended" in the shop... it ain't shown any improvement, even with temperatures nearing 50°. I don't like the new technology... I think it's stupid (based on more than just my stove)... get over it.

Then either you're doing something wrong with the PE summit (Wood, setup, chimney) or something is wrong with the stove. Did you season the wood for the PE? If you didn't there is your problem right there.

What don't you like about the new technology? You say think it's stupid but you haven't given a solid reason for why.

Where do I get one of these crystal balls that allows you to see what someone else is doing half way across the country??

Based on your description of how your stove is configured.

 

[Ronaldo]

There are a few of these secondary combustion stoves out there that work well for their owners.......I have knowledge of a Pacific Energy Summit, Vogelzang Defender, Jotul ????on model (secondary comb. baffle and or tube design) and a Woodstock Soapstone (catilytic) that are all heating homes with out any of the troubles that have been stated here. These are all chainsaw or woodcutting friends of mine in my local area.

Before installing my Pacific Energy Super 27 (same firebox as the Spectrum that Whitespider loves to hate), I had an old school Blaze King (no ash pan with a front opening door that hinged down). I used that for a couple of years and started looking for something more efficient with a glass door ( love to see the fire). I had my purchase narrowed down to a Quadra Fire or the PE and chose the PE for price and several other features I liked better and payed around $1000 in the year 2000.

More facts for you:
With the new stove now I burn less wood, carry out far less ashes and check/clean chimney only once per year just to be on the safe side. The PE stove heats my entire 2000 sq.ft. house with no problem and no help from any other heat source. I load and let the stove get a good burn going, then damper down exactly like the owners manual explains. I get great overnight burns (8-10 hrs.) and have beautiful coals in the morning to get burning again. This is all in the same house, same chimney, same heat load etc. My new technology "EPA" "Elitist" stove is far and above better in every way over my old one.

Great heat---great efficiency---great looks (sits in the family room and we all love to watch the fire, its like moving the firepit indoors for the winter).

They may not be for everyone, but this is my experience and for 14 years now have been EXTREMELY satisfied and happy with my secondary combustion stove.

 

[1project2many]

Don't over analyze... it ain't a poor analogy.
A 4-cyl Escort engine ain't gonna' pull my stock trailer. And with any engine, and all else remains the same, more fuel means more power.
But that wasn't my point... my point was the fuel to to power ratio ain't linear as power is increased.

Sadly, I'm not. More power with less fuel using smaller engines is what I've done for much of a lifetime. There are threads as long as this one on automotive forums for BSFC and related topics.

I'd like to know how people are getting 6-8+hr burn time with an EPA box...

The secondary burners don't do as well as cat stoves. The cat stove gasifies wood in the box and uses the reaction in the catalytic converter to produce most of the heat. If yours is a catalytic stove and it needs fuel more frequently than a similar model in another home, that seems to indicate your heating need is at the higher end of the stove's output.

 

[Whitespider]

Then either you're doing something wrong... or something is wrong with the stove. Did you season the wood... ?

Blind denial is amazing...
Why is it so friggin' hard to believe that the elitist technology just flat ain't always the best choice for every application under all conditions??
Why is itt so friggin' hard to believe that there ain't any be-all-to-end-all... why is it so friggin' hard to believe not every latest 'n' greatest thing is "best" for every application??
Why ain't all ovens of microwave technology?? Microwave is more efficient??
Why is it, in this day 'n' age of cell phones and other forms of digital, instantaneous communications... I still sell and install dozens of analog business-band two-way radios and repeaters every year?? Heck, near all law enforcement and emergency responders ('round here) still rely on the same basic 90-year-old technology... and digital two-way has been available for years‼
Why ain't GPS technology eliminated the magnetic compass??
Do you remember the "new" Coke-Cola??
Do you have power disc brakes on your lawn tractor?? Power steering on your motorcycle??
Why ain't there a wind turbine and solar panels on the roof of every house?? And Geo-thermal under the yard (which is now most certainly AstroTurf)??
Does most of your OPE still start via a pull cord?? Really??
Please don't tell me you're still using a key to unlock your house door?? I'll bet you even use kindling to start a fire also... geezzz‼
Do you still stop at the gas pump?? You are aware there's electric cars now... correct?? Well, no doubt, all of your internal combustion engines are at least capable of using E85 I'm sure??
Did you use a keyboard to make your last post?? What?‼? You do know you can just speak to the computer now??
By-the-way... are you lovin' that new 3-D printer??
No doubt you've installed a fire sprinkler system in your house, and an elevator... or at least an escalator?? C'mon man, they've been 'round for decades‼
Every appliance, everything plugged into your wall outlets is "Energy Star" rated??
All of your light switches have been replaced with motion sensors?? They haven't?? What??
You've purchased satellite radio for all your vehicles... and your home?? And please don't tell me your TV signal, telephone, internet, and whatnot still enters your home via a wire or cable.
Can you believe people still pay for a printed newspaper?? Heck, I know people still purchasing postage stamps... can you believe it?? And on top of that that... they actually write checks, or even use cash‼
I actually saw a guy shoveling snow off his sidewalk the other day‼ (I think it was the same guy I saw raking leaves a couple months ago.)

Should I go on??
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