Seeking advice for pollarded eucalyptus

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MattB

The Tree Hugging Tree Cutter
Joined
Feb 28, 2007
Messages
68
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Location
Occidental, California
I have been asked to bid on a commercial property with about 40 red gum eucalyptus that have been previously topped at about 25' up. I would guess the trees were topped 8-10 years ago and now many 30' long 5-6" spars are now leaning over the buildings. I have observed that many branches have broken away from the edges of the previous cuts and I suspect that the larger tops are just as likely to have poor connections.

As a rule I don't top trees but at this point I think the damage may have already been done. I am considering bringing the trees back to previous cuts and recommending that I come back in a couple years to thin the sprouts.

Has anyone else faced this before? I am going to go visit the site tomorrow, I will try to post pictures.
 
I should also make the point that the new tops are bare of lateral branching except at the tips, so there are no places to do a proper cut back to a leader.
 
They are not pollarded. Do not use this word to describe topping. It gives pollarding a bad name, and hacks an excuse to top trees and legitimise it by calling it a fancy name.

You will need to put in some pictures. If they are Eucalyptus camaldulensis, which I am guessing by your common name, they are probably irretrievable. Maybe you should consider planting some succession trees now and managing these ones for a short while before you remove them.

Damn hacks topping Euc's :chainsaw: To answer your question, almost everyone on here will have faced this before. We're sick of seeing it.
 
If you're not going to remove them, the only responsible course of treatment is to top them again at a relatively uniform heigth of 10-12 feet above the old topping cuts.

Make it perfectly clear in the contract that followup pruning within 3-5 years is mandatory to avoid a hazardous tree situation from developing again as a result of topping.

I believe the proper terminology for the third topping is tertiary growth crown restoration, rather than the second topping that I call secondary growth crown restoration.

And topping is not the same as pollarding, which is an ancient fine art with a very precise set of rules and timelines.

Tertiary growth eucs are very common in California and elsewhere.

Once a tree's been topped the only responsible course of treatment is to either remove it or top it again within a varying timeline dependent on species.

Atleast that's my opinion anyway.

jomoco
 
If you're not going to remove them, the only responsible course of treatment is to top them again at a relatively uniform heigth of 10-12 feet above the old topping cuts.

Make it perfectly clear in the contract that followup pruning within 3-5 years is mandatory to avoid a hazardous tree situation from developing again as a result of topping.

I believe the proper terminology for the third topping is tertiary growth crown restoration, rather than the second topping that I call secondary growth crown restoration.

And topping is not the same as pollarding, which is an ancient fine art with a very precise set of rules and timelines.

Tertiary growth eucs are very common in California and elsewhere.

Once a tree's been topped the only responsible course of treatment is to either remove it or top it again within a varying timeline dependent on species.

Atleast that's my opinion anyway.

jomoco

In my most diplomatic tone I must humbly say. NO ####ING WAY.

I have succesfully restored the canopy on a number of E.camaldulensis and it definately was not done this way! I wish my comp had not crashed so I could show you a sweet pruning job done less than 12 months ago that I still send new clients to look at so they can see it is possible.

Firstly it is fair to say some trees will be easier to correct than others. That said, isolating stronger leaders is not a difficult task. Sound each connection with a mallet. The bad ones sound "hollow" and sometimes "flat". Reduce the number of leaders per tree by one third. Despite that this is contrary to conventional 15-25% for mature trees remember that this is the equivalent of CPR for the tree. Discuss the prospect of DYNAMIC cabling for these trees if it is within the clients budget. If it is not, then walk them through the more cost effective method of removing the worst trees and replanting whilst restoring the stronger specimens.

Most important point here IMO is that topping whether for the first, second or twenty second time IS NOT a tool that belongs in the 21st century arborists bag of tricks.

Whatever you do, please, please, please DO NOT top an E.camaldulensis above an existing obvious "topping point" The lesser of two evils is always to reduce the tree to its previous cut. Not pollarding in the correct sense of the word but 1000 times better then producing epicormic growth on top of epicormic growth and of course if it is done again... Epo on epo on epo......
 
Hey folks. Here are a selection of pictures to show you what I'm dealing with.

Feedback is appreciated.

After going back and studying the trees more it looks like these have been topped back on multiple occasions. Note the exposed wood that never healed over and the pulled bark from branches breaking away.
 
I've recovered three topped trees over the past 9 years. Purchase Ed Gilman's, An illustrated guide to pruning. The book will show you how it's done.

It worked on all three topped tree, but only one was a mature tree, (Ficus).
 
One last word, the Ficus toke seven years. The client paid about 600.00 every year, but they are very happy with the results. You can't have a home in Florida with out a Ficus sp...right?
 
VL07,
I just ordered a copy of Ed Gilman's book. Hopefully the 1st edition will have the same information. It was $9.99 used instead of $60+ for a used copy of the most recent edition.
 
One last word, the Ficus toke seven years. The client paid about 600.00 every year, but they are very happy with the results. You can't have a home in Florida with out a Ficus sp...right?

I bet that was an icky mess!!! How large was it overall that it took seven years?

Well done to you for getting them onto an annual renovation programme, your 'sell' must have been right on, I get people who can't understand why it can't all be done right now!
 
Hey folks. Here are a selection of pictures to show you what I'm dealing with.

Feedback is appreciated.

After going back and studying the trees more it looks like these have been topped back on multiple occasions. Note the exposed wood that never healed over and the pulled bark from branches breaking away.

Oh dear! I would say you have your work cut out for you on this one. My personal feeling is with the house right there underneath it, I would remove it and plant something else - a little further from the house. JMHO. Others like OOMT might be able to come up with a plan for you, but I have had one of these suckers break out on me before, so I guess I'm just chicken. Good luck.
 
I agree with oomt about tapping to assess hollows, but I also agree with jomoco about reducing. Most eucs do have nodes where there are buds visible. Those are points to cut back to, and it can be proper; read Shigo, read ANSI. Growth from these is endocomic, not epi, or epo...

Not sure gilman's first edition is the same, but as he said to the crowd last friday, the starting point with restoration is to remove 1/3 of the sprouts (the hollow and included ones, for instance), reduce 1/3 and retain 1/3. The goal is to spread out the new foliage, and thus the wind load.
 
Based on those few photographs Matt I would have to say the outlook for those trees is not good.

Tree ID can be tricky but IMO it is the first and most important thing to do for your client. The difference between the way two "similar" species respond to pruning can be profound. There are 894 recognised Eucalypt species if you include Angophora and Corymbia. That 1st photograph shows bark somewhat similar to Corymbia calophylla but very unlike Eucalyptus camaldulensis. If you find a mature "nut" and several leaves and take a photograph of both on a sheet of white paper with a ruler in the view I will help you put a name to the tree.


I agree with oomt about tapping to assess hollows, but I also agree with jomoco about reducing. Most eucs do have nodes where there are buds visible. Those are points to cut back to, and it can be proper; read Shigo, read ANSI. Growth from these is endocomic, not epi, or epo...

If you're not going to remove them, the only responsible course of treatment is to top them again at a relatively uniform heigth of 10-12 feet above the old topping cuts.

Guy is being graceful but there is a world of difference between reducing to nodes and retopping at a uniform length as Jomoco said above. It is the indiscriminate cutting of branches based on length alone that destroys these trees. Select the strongest unions (by tapping if you will) and remove the rest. My personal benchmark, used in my home town, is remove 1/3 of the branches above the lowest topping point. Pay particular attention to the direction of prevailing wind. The tree needs more branches on the windward than leeward sides as branches are stronger when pushed up and in than down and out.

This break occurred toward the north east and in Perth the prevailing winds is from...you guessed, it the south west. Note the typical dark stain of rot below the old topping cut and the total lack of connection other than to the side of the cut.

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By the way this tree is E.camaldulensis with its typical powdery bark and darker patches. Bark is a very misleading means of tree ID however so that seed + leaf + scale photo is really going to help.


Is it possible to take more photographs of whole trees with a good camera or would you be open to providing the google earth location? Remember your competitors can also see this site though!
 
Your position is silly OOMT, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

You can tap out the star bangled banner with your mallet all day long my friend, but it still won't magically change secondary growth back into strongly attached primary growth, that's why topping trees is a no no junior.

The reality is it happens, and once it happens, it will have to keep happening in order to maintain any semblance of structural integrity short of removing it.

But by all means, spread your miracle treatment to newbies so their reputations get shreaded in the next storm, along with their clients homes

How long you been in this biz again?

jomoco
 
Your position is silly OOMT, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

You can tap out the star bangled banner with your mallet all day long my friend, but it still won't magically change secondary growth back into strongly attached primary growth, that's why topping trees is a no no junior.

The reality is it happens, and once it happens, it will have to keep happening in order to maintain any semblance of structural integrity short of removing it.

But by all means, spread your miracle treatment to newbies so their reputations get shreaded in the next storm, along with their clients homes

How long you been in this biz again?

jomoco

LOL.

Jomoco once again, in attacking me rather than my reasoning, you show that your own top, top and retop idea has no scientific or economic value. As for this little gem

But by all means, spread your miracle treatment to newbies so their reputations get shreaded in the next storm, along with their clients homes

it just goes to show how little attention you pay to other peoples posts.

Here is a snippet from the OP.

I have observed that many branches have broken away from the edges of the previous cuts and I suspect that the larger tops are just as likely to have poor connections.

Without any work done these trees are already shedding branches. So you suggest making topping cuts 12 feet above the existing ones. Let me explain the sheer stupidity of that comment to the readers. Once you make an internodal cut on a Euc it will activate multiple nodes close to the cut. Instead of 1 branch you will now have 3,4,5,6 or more. As this growth is emergency growth to replace much needed food factories (leaves) it will go upwards very fast and produce 2 or even 3 times as many leaves as was on the original branch. So now you have a branch that is longer, heavier and has far greater wind resistance than ever before. No surprise that, like the photograph I showed earlier, they snap off at the union.

How long you been in this biz again?

Have you ever noticed how people with much practise at doing the same thing wrong over and over again call it experience?

If you are reading this and don't know which way to turn I suggest you go to an unbiased source. Try any of Alex Shigo's books but in particular I suggest A New Tree Biology (heavy reading but great for detailed knowledge) or Modern Arboriculture. You may also read An illustrated guide to pruning by Edward Gilman. Both these authors are highly regarded by arborists around the world and both of them slam topping for what it is. Bad tree pruning.

Matt if the client is prepared to pay for a long term program rather than a quick fix then may I suggest a mix of the following.

Remove trees which are dangerous or simply not cost effective to save.

Plant more than you remove choosing a species that is appropriate for the conditions.

Reduce existing trees as noted above.

Installation of non-intrusive dynamic cabling for high risk trees such as Yale brace or Cobra.

Mulch rings as wide as can be fitted in to the landscaping around each tree.

Plastic gutter guard for the buildings. Way cheaper than pruning trees to keep leaves out of the gutters!

I do not live in your part of the world. I live in Australia where more than 800 of the 894 Eucalypt species come from. I work with Eucs 3 days out of 5. In perth alone there are upwards of 1 million publicly owned Eucalypts in public parks, streets, verges, schools, hospitals and of course back yards. I am not the be all and end all of Eucalypt care. Far from it. But what I know I am 100% certain of and back up my arguments with facts you can check for yourself.

Sorry for the rant but I simply cannot abide bad practise being passed off as good ESPECIALLY by someone who should know better.
 
Let me be sure that I understand...I should take off one 1/3 of the stems (all the way back to the trunk with a proper finishing cut), keep 1/3 of them as they are and then "reduce" 1/3 more?

How would I go about reducing a stem that has nothing to cut back too other than to top it again?

What about in the case of all of the stems having poor attachments and leaning over the buildings? I can probably answer that myself...full removal. hmmmmmmm


I agree with oomt about tapping to assess hollows, but I also agree with jomoco about reducing. Most eucs do have nodes where there are buds visible. Those are points to cut back to, and it can be proper; read Shigo, read ANSI. Growth from these is endocomic, not epi, or epo...

Not sure gilman's first edition is the same, but as he said to the crowd last friday, the starting point with restoration is to remove 1/3 of the sprouts (the hollow and included ones, for instance), reduce 1/3 and retain 1/3. The goal is to spread out the new foliage, and thus the wind load.

I've added a few more pictures that show how truly mangled these trees are plus an example of a broken out branch. These extra pictures might help with an ID.

Outofmytree, I will have to go back to the jobsite again as I need to inspect not only these 40 eucs but also 75 Bull Pine and 50 pear. I will try to get some good photos of the foliage for you.
 
Let me be sure that I understand...I should take off one 1/3 of the stems (all the way back to the trunk with a proper finishing cut), keep 1/3 of them as they are and then "reduce" 1/3 more?

How would I go about reducing a stem that has nothing to cut back too other than to top it again?

What about in the case of all of the stems having poor attachments and leaning over the buildings? I can probably answer that myself...full removal. hmmmmmmm




I've added a few more pictures that show how truly mangled these trees are plus an example of a broken out branch. These extra pictures might help with an ID.

Outofmytree, I will have to go back to the jobsite again as I need to inspect not only these 40 eucs but also 75 Bull Pine and 50 pear. I will try to get some good photos of the foliage for you.

Photo 0845 looks much more like Eucalyptus gomphocephala (Tuart Gum) but those leaf/fruit pictrues will really help. If anything Tuarts are worse than River red gums for epicormic failure. They grow larger, have denser wood and greater foliage density. It really helps to know which tree it is. :)
 
I would avoid Guy's Meilleur Folie cut (node pruning :eek:) like the plague, it's a wolf in sheeps clothing and he's peddling it harder than Andy Schleck in the Tour De France.

Here in the city of Mildura check it out what the local govt did when faced with a similar but larger problem.

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It's called being between a rock and a hard place, high value targets, high occupancy rates, large leaders with little opportunity of target cuts.

This picture will give you an idea of the sizes we're looking at.

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