Sharpening hard wood profile

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

Chaps, I have found that with new 3/8 stihl chain, using the recommended 13/64 file that it’s difficult to get the gullet and rest of the tooth / top plate and not put too much hook in.

Therefore I jumped up to a 7/32 which gives me less hook and hits the gullet in one go.

Can you foresee any issues doing so?

I know it’s common practise to drop a file size half way down the tooth, so thought I’d put it out there going the other way on a new chain on hardwood.

 

[mojo jojo]

Every other chain manufacturer recommend 7/32 file on their 3/8 chains, except Stihl. So heres your answer.

 

[merc_man]

I use 7/ 32 file on 3/8 chain
3/16 on 325 chain and 3/8 LP

Thats what works for me.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

I use 7/ 32 file on 3/8 chain
3/16 on 325 chain and 3/8 LP

Thats what works for me.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

Specifically, on stihl chain?

 

[Westboastfaller]

No! that's a great technique in hard woods.. that I've cut. Although tight to get into on first file with Stihl. I will have in stock 3/16, 13/64, 7/32 and 1/4 files that I will use with 3/8 chain through different predicaments and activities.
Often I start on brand new chain with a 3/16 where it calls for 7/32 with Oregon. (Unless I am on the coast falling, in that case then I like to have two new chains with the gullet even & deep. ( Generally for the Cedar majority) It's important to do this ahead of time for that application. Sometimes I'm ill-prepared. It certainly wouldn't be a 'shift starting' preference. If it was all Hemlock Balsam & some spruce then you could just fall smooth & comfortably off the dogs with a factory round grind and buy yourself some time. I usually don't get to cut in the cream unless that's all there is on the job. I just happen to be both too old and too young, and that's been the way for some time now.(along with other important deciding factors)

I've done lots of work in the interior such as Falling danger tree accompanied with slashing Seismic grids, Faller/Assessor on wildland fires, (DTA/DTF) free Falling live wire (and otherwise) on utility lines.
Mountain Pine Beetle control,. Coast Falling on property development with machine assist and some coast residential work.
Production Falling in Europe were I now live.

I have used mostly Oregon due to the wet weather in BC.
Most all of these applications you can start with a 3/16 file (I know you said you have problems with a small file... I'm sure I can help you out with that)
When most applicable, you can cut the gullet in easier and gradually instead of wasting a file on carving in the gullet.
If it just needs a sharpen then run the same file if that's working ok for 'you' If not then bounce up to where you need to go.
The art of it is to keep it down to the smallest files for as long as you can.
When you dusted the chain out pretty good then you move up to 13/64...then eventually 7/32.
When you step up a file size then you instantly hit the leading edge due to it resting into the greater contour. If you are in a real rush then that's all you need to do and you are back up and going. If one is looking for a deeper gullet then work it gradually as you increase file size. Its effortless.
Once you get to the large file and gullet then you can carve back in the top gullet with the 3/16 and start the process again.

I have worked a lot of peice work.
That trick alone (that I figured out) has paid for every stick of parts, every saw and port work in 30 yrs.
Put that one in the bag of tricks.
Now you just have to lean how to do it.

Sorry, I noticed you started or/ & resurrected some threads on hand filing.
I wanted to add some on but I just couldn't get up to ring the bell. Give me a kick and I'll be happy to teach you everything you know.
...but not everything I know.
,*smiles* if you are interested, I'll help you out dude.
Jamie

 

[Philbert]

Every other chain manufacturer recommend 7/32 file on their 3/8 chains, except Stihl

This is true. However, it is not clear if this is due to STIHL's preferences, or if STIHL 3/8 pitch chain has a different profile than the others.

Can you foresee any issues doing so?

All things equal, placing a different diameter file in the position shown above, will change the top plate cutting bevel angle and 'hook', as well as change the curvature of the side plate cutting bevel. The difference between 13/64" and 14/64" (7/32") is small, and the changes should be slight. If you notice them, then they are significant. Many guys will change these angles intentionally due to preference, so I would not be concerned, unless it is causing you problems, or noticeably affecting performance.

. . . and hits the gullet in one go.

*This is the part that is a bigger issue. Again, referring to the image above, sharpening should focus on the parts of the top plate and side plate that do the actual cutting. Cleaning out the gullet, and adjusting the depth gauge, are important, but separate steps, which may be done with different files, after the cutting edges have been sharpened.

Philbert

 

[Mad Professor]

I hand file and use 7/32" files on Stihl 3/8 RM and RS chains. Most of my cutting is in hardwoods.

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

This is true. However, it is not clear if this is due to STIHL's preferences, or if STIHL 3/8 pitch chain has a different profile than the others.

View attachment 885103
All things equal, placing a different diameter file in the position shown above, will change the top plate cutting bevel angle and 'hook', as well as change the curvature of the side plate cutting bevel. The difference between 13/64" and 14/64" (7/32") is small, and the changes should be slight. If you notice them, then they are significant. Many guys will change these angles intentionally due to preference, so I would not be concerned, unless it is causing you problems, or noticeably affecting performance.


*This is the part that is a bigger issue. Again, referring to the image above, sharpening should focus on the parts of the top plate and side plate that do the actual cutting. Cleaning out the gullet, and adjusting the depth gauge, are important, but separate steps, which may be done with different files, after the cutting edges have been sharpened.

Philbert

Thanks Philbert that’s really appreciated. All of my chains bar this and one other have been rescued ones so they had less than half life left and 13/64 was fine. Taking advice from Aussies on here and going less hook I just found myself, with 13/64 moving the file down trying to get the shape that the 7/16 seems to just do it all in one go. I’ll take a picture shortly.

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

No! that's a great technique in hard woods.. that I've cut. Although tight to get into on first file with Stihl. I will have in stock 3/16, 13/64, 7/32 and 1/4 files that I will use with 3/8 chain through different predicaments and activities.
Often I start on brand new chain with a 3/16 where it calls for 7/32 with Oregon. (Unless I am on the coast falling, in that case then I like to have two new chains with the gullet even & deep. ( Generally for the Cedar majority) It's important to do this ahead of time for that application. Sometimes I'm ill-prepared. It certainly wouldn't be a 'shift starting' preference. If it was all Hemlock Balsam & some spruce then you could just fall smooth & comfortably off the dogs with a factory round grind and buy yourself some time. I usually don't get to cut in the cream unless that's all there is on the job. I just happen to be both too old and too young, and that's been the way for some time now.(along with other important deciding factors)

I've done lots of work in the interior such as Falling danger tree accompanied with slashing Seismic grids, Faller/Assessor on wildland fires, (DTA/DTF) free Falling live wire (and otherwise) on utility lines.
Mountain Pine Beetle control,. Coast Falling on property development with machine assist and some coast residential work.
Production Falling in Europe were I now live.

I have used mostly Oregon due to the wet weather in BC.
Most all of these applications you can start with a 3/16 file (I know you said you have problems with a small file... I'm sure I can help you out with that)
When most applicable, you can cut the gullet in easier and gradually instead of wasting a file on carving in the gullet.
If it just needs a sharpen then run the same file if that's working ok for 'you' If not then bounce up to where you need to go.
The art of it is to keep it down to the smallest files for as long as you can.
When you dusted the chain out pretty good then you move up to 13/64...then eventually 7/32.
When you step up a file size then you instantly hit the leading edge due to it resting into the greater contour. If you are in a real rush then that's all you need to do and you are back up and going. If one is looking for a deeper gullet then work it gradually as you increase file size. Its effortless.
Once you get to the large file and gullet then you can carve back in the top gullet with the 3/16 and start the process again.

I have worked a lot of peice work.
That trick alone (that I figured out) has paid for every stick of parts, every saw and port work in 30 yrs.
Put that one in the bag of tricks.
Now you just have to lean how to do it.

Sorry, I noticed you started or/ & resurrected some threads on hand filing.
I wanted to add some on but I just couldn't get up to ring the bell. Give me a kick and I'll be happy to teach you everything you know.
...but not everything I know.
,*smiles* if you are interested, I'll help you out dude.
Jamie

You’re a gent, thanks Jamie!! Lots of info on here already. I’m going to go out and test this chain in a few days and see how it cuts to add a new leaf to book then come back and pick everyone’s brain once again. Essentially I just want to try a little less hook and getting it with 7/16 seemed the ticket as it gave me the shape I wanted without having to move the smaller file
down in the gullet and then up for the top plate and then in the middle to smooth the c shape

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

So far I have only done one side, just in case my aussi friends say it’s still too much hook / top plate for the harder woods here. You can see the tooth left and right of the one I have just sharpened was the previous degree of hook / top plate that I have yet to sharpen. Lessening it gradually and testing it is my current plan.

 

[rogue60]

If you free hand file don't forget about SET.
If you have a progressive raker gauge and think cutters all different lengths don't matter wrong! throw it in the bin lol not so noticeable in very softwoods like overseas but is not what you can call an efficient chain especially if you are getting into some of the harder Aussie hardwoods you need every cutter doing the same work.
Different length cutter's means the set is all over the place from cutter to cutter which means a handful of the cutters with more set are doing all the work cleaning up after the cutters with less set.
The closest to all uniform cutters left and right in length you can humanly get free hand filing the more efficient the chain will be.
It's why some guy's are so impressed with chain sharped correctly off a grinder the set will be the same left and right off a grinder making for an efficient chain.

All saws that cut timber like band saws /hand saws/ circular saws all have set set the same left side and right side chainsaw chain is designed exactly the same to be at it's most efficient anyone who thinks this isn't true might be indulging
in a little to much internet's lol

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

If you free hand file don't forget about SET.
If you have a progressive raker gauge and think cutters all different lengths don't matter wrong! throw it in the bin lol not so noticeable in very softwoods like overseas but is not what you can call an efficient chain especially if you are getting into some of the harder Aussie hardwoods you need every cutter doing the same work.
Different length cutter's means the set is all over the place from cutter to cutter which means a handful of the cutters with more set are doing all the work cleaning up after the cutters with less set.
The closest to all uniform cutters left and right in length you can humanly get free hand filing the more efficient the chain will be.
It's why some guy's are so impressed with chain sharped correctly off a grinder the set will be the same left and right off a grinder making for an efficient chain.

All saws that cut timber like band saws /hand saws/ circular saws all have set set the same left side and right side chainsaw chain is designed exactly the same to be at it's most efficient anyone who thinks this isn't true might be indulging
in a little to much internet's lol

Hmmm I have seen a video where Buckin Billy Ray has disproved what you say above showing that length of cutter made no difference so long as you use a progressive file. He left one side full length and took the other side down to the very last bit of tooth. It cut smooth and straight. He also had a chain where they where all totally different lengths and it cut straight and smooth. None of my chains have even length cutters and they cut smooth and straight, better than stock new stihl chain in Aussi hardwood.



So you’re saying if you smash a few teeth on a chain, you take back every single tooth to the same length? Do you measure every tooth each time you sharpen the saw? Thats just not realistic or practical in any real world application. I’m not disagreeing that it may be advantageous on a race chain for milliseconds of advantage, but I just can’t see anyone in a real world application cutting firewood or even loggers doing it so long as each tooth’s depth gauge has been progressively filed to match.

 

[Mad Professor]

If you free hand file don't forget about SET.
If you have a progressive raker gauge and think cutters all different lengths don't matter wrong! throw it in the bin lol not so noticeable in very softwoods like overseas but is not what you can call an efficient chain especially if you are getting into some of the harder Aussie hardwoods you need every cutter doing the same work.
Different length cutter's means the set is all over the place from cutter to cutter which means a handful of the cutters with more set are doing all the work cleaning up after the cutters with less set.
The closest to all uniform cutters left and right in length you can humanly get free hand filing the more efficient the chain will be.
It's why some guy's are so impressed with chain sharped correctly off a grinder the set will be the same left and right off a grinder making for an efficient chain.

All saws that cut timber like band saws /hand saws/ circular saws all have set set the same left side and right side chainsaw chain is designed exactly the same to be at it's most efficient anyone who thinks this isn't true might be indulging
in a little to much internet's lol

I give all the "long" cutters an extra stroke or two with the file, "shortys" just enough to make them sharp. That evens things up over time and does not waste cutters and time sharpening.

But I'm not making racing chain or doing wood any harder than dry locust, but that's pretty darn hard. I hear you guys have some species that are like cutting stone.

 

[merc_man]

Specifically, on stihl chain?

Any brand

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

 

[merc_man]

Hmmm I have seen a video where Buckin Billy Ray has disproved what you say above showing that length of cutter made no difference so long as you use a progressive file. He left one side full length and took the other side down to the very last bit of tooth. It cut smooth and straight. He also had a chain where they where all totally different lengths and it cut straight and smooth. None of my chains have even length cutters and they cut smooth and straight, better than stock new stihl chain in Aussi hardwood.



So you’re saying if you smash a few teeth on a chain, you take back every single tooth to the same length? Do you measure every tooth each time you sharpen the saw? Thats just not realistic or practical in any real world application. I’m not disagreeing that it may be advantageous on a race chain for milliseconds of advantage, but I just can’t see anyone in a real world application cutting firewood or even loggers doing it so long as each tooth’s depth gauge has been progressively filed to match.

Long as the rakers are set propper. Legth of cutter dont matter.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

 

[Philbert]

This is one of those things that comes up on a regular basis, and in many threads . . .

If you free hand file don't forget about SET.

Yes. Jointing and Setting applies to all types of saws.

I have seen a video where Buckin Billy Ray has disproved what you say

He has not 'disproved' anything. There are several videos, from different guys, out there on YouTube that show that a chain with different length cutters can cut reasonably straight if each depth gauge is individually adjusted to the corresponding tooth. That does not mean that the chain is cutting as efficiently, or as smoothly, as equal length (and equal angles, and equal sharpness) cutters.

You can drive a pickup truck with different air pressure in all four tires, and stay reasonably on the road. But it is not recommended for the truck, for the tires, or for performance. Lots of guys do this anyway.

Buckin Billy Ray has some informative and entertaining videos that have helped a lot of guys. But the folks at Oregon, STIHL, etc., likely have more than a million man hours of engineering time, over the last 75 years or so, invested into the chains we use; so I like to consider their opinions too.

So you’re saying if you smash a few teeth on a chain, you take back every single tooth to the same length?

This is up to you. If it is one or two teeth, I usually file/grind those back, and let the others 'catch up'. This will not be noticed any more than that extra tie strap, or two Right or two Left cutters in a row, on many chain loops. If there are a lot of heavily damaged teeth, I might spin those out and replace them from an identical 'donor loop'. But many of the chains that Ireceive to sharpen not only have different length cutters, but different angles as well, from hand filing. So, for me, it is easiest to put them on a grinder and even things up all over. If you are a skilled, hand filer, and keep all of your cutters the same, you might make different choices.

Philbert

 

[president]

No! that's a great technique in hard woods.. that I've cut. Although tight to get into on first file with Stihl. I will have in stock 3/16, 13/64, 7/32 and 1/4 files that I will use with 3/8 chain through different predicaments and activities.
Often I start on brand new chain with a 3/16 where it calls for 7/32 with Oregon. (Unless I am on the coast falling, in that case then I like to have two new chains with the gullet even & deep. ( Generally for the Cedar majority) It's important to do this ahead of time for that application. Sometimes I'm ill-prepared. It certainly wouldn't be a 'shift starting' preference. If it was all Hemlock Balsam & some spruce then you could just fall smooth & comfortably off the dogs with a factory round grind and buy yourself some time. I usually don't get to cut in the cream unless that's all there is on the job. I just happen to be both too old and too young, and that's been the way for some time now.(along with other important deciding factors)

I've done lots of work in the interior such as Falling danger tree accompanied with slashing Seismic grids, Faller/Assessor on wildland fires, (DTA/DTF) free Falling live wire (and otherwise) on utility lines.
Mountain Pine Beetle control,. Coast Falling on property development with machine assist and some coast residential work.
Production Falling in Europe were I now live.

I have used mostly Oregon due to the wet weather in BC.
Most all of these applications you can start with a 3/16 file (I know you said you have problems with a small file... I'm sure I can help you out with that)
When most applicable, you can cut the gullet in easier and gradually instead of wasting a file on carving in the gullet.
If it just needs a sharpen then run the same file if that's working ok for 'you' If not then bounce up to where you need to go.
The art of it is to keep it down to the smallest files for as long as you can.
When you dusted the chain out pretty good then you move up to 13/64...then eventually 7/32.
When you step up a file size then you instantly hit the leading edge due to it resting into the greater contour. If you are in a real rush then that's all you need to do and you are back up and going. If one is looking for a deeper gullet then work it gradually as you increase file size. Its effortless.
Once you get to the large file and gullet then you can carve back in the top gullet with the 3/16 and start the process again.

I have worked a lot of peice work.
That trick alone (that I figured out) has paid for every stick of parts, every saw and port work in 30 yrs.
Put that one in the bag of tricks.
Now you just have to lean how to do it.

Sorry, I noticed you started or/ & resurrected some threads on hand filing.
I wanted to add some on but I just couldn't get up to ring the bell. Give me a kick and I'll be happy to teach you everything you know.
...but not everything I know.
,*smiles* if you are interested, I'll help you out dude.
Jamie

good description ,thanks

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

This is one of those things that comes up on a regular basis, and in many threads . . .


Yes. Jointing and Setting applies to all types of saws.
View attachment 885282


He has not 'disproved' anything. There are several videos, from different guys, out there on YouTube that show that a chain with different length cutters can cut reasonably straight if each depth gauge is individually adjusted to the corresponding tooth. That does not mean that the chain is cutting as efficiently, or as smoothly, as equal length (and equal angles, and equal sharpness) cutters.

You can drive a pickup truck with different air pressure in all four tires, and stay reasonably on the road. But it is not recommended for the truck, for the tires, or for performance. Lots of guys do this anyway.

Buckin Billy Ray has some informative and entertaining videos that have helped a lot of guys. But the folks at Oregon, STIHL, etc., likely have more than a million man hours of engineering time, over the last 75 years or so, invested into the chains we use; so I like to consider their opinions too.

This is up to you. If it is one or two teeth, I usually file/grind those back, and let the others 'catch up'. This will not be noticed any more than that extra tie strap, or two Right or two Left cutters in a row, on many chain loops. If there are a lot of heavily damaged teeth, I might spin those out and replace them from an identical 'donor loop'. But many of the chains that Ireceive to sharpen not only have different length cutters, but different angles as well, from hand filing. So, for me, it is easiest to put them on a grinder and even things up all over. If you are a skilled, hand filer, and keep all of your cutters the same, you might make different choices.

Philbert

How about I test it, rather than go back and forth disagreeing - I’m happy to be proven wrong. I’ll get a new chain and leave it stock and I’ll find one of my hand filed chains of all different length teeth and do a video with timed cuts, straightness and share thoughts on vibration.

I’ll need at least a week before I can get out and do it and I’ll start another thread with my honest findings and get it on video. I’m happy to be proven wrong and I’m always motivated to learn as much as I can and experience things first hand, but I’m also keen to see what’s hearsay, theoretical or reserved for race chains rather than fact or real world situations for the average firewood cutter.

 

[Philbert]

It's been done. Again, lots of videos on YouTube showing that it can cut straight. But the manufacturers do it in calibrated test fixtures, under laboratory conditions, that neither you or I can afford.

That's where it goes back to the definitions of 'significant', 'practical', etc. I am not worried if cutters are off by a few millimeters here or there. I don't measure with a caliper when I sharpen. But if they are seriously out of whack, or the user is having problems with it cutting straight, the chain gets 'evened out' on the grinder.



If you take the time to try it, to satisfy your own curiosity, I would be happy to watch your video (of reasonable length).

Philbert

 

[trains]

Tom, it will cut, but what has been said is correct, and notice they say Efficient chain.
Not if its cutting straight etc.

Re read what rouge60 and Philbert have said and let it filter in.

billy rays vid does show the chain cutting straight, but thats not what were talking about, were now talking about the finer points of sharpening here, all the 1% bits that go together and add up.


More efficient, ie correctly set up in the first place of even consistent cutters will make a smoother, more efficient chain, so its less work on the saw, the operator, and more wood is cut between sharpening.
Not sure your going to notice much just cutting one log on the ground like your test cuts.

joint and set is important, took hrs re doing my circular saw bench blade, and re gulleting it, all the cutter angles were wrong, inconsistent tooth height etc, it was a terrible mess.
now its all correctly done and works well.

did it work before, well technically it did cut wood.
does it cut wood now, yes, and technically its much safer, smoother, and the cutters last much longer between sharpens.