Sharpening hard wood profile

[rogue60]

Thanks mate looks great. Really looking forward to trying these different hook profiles and will report back. Do you do logging commercially?

Used to work in the family business cutting railway sleepers and bridge timber for over 20 years we had a mill and the logging side.
My dad started out as a cutter for the big mills up north in the 70s 80s running 090s yeah he's a pro hardwood cutter/logger he still runs saws daily can't help him self even though he's retired this is him tough old bugger he's a bushy doesn't like his pic taken lol

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

Used to work in the family business cutting railway sleepers and bridge timber for over 20 years we had a mill and the logging side.
My dad started out as a cutter for the big mills up north in the 70s 80s running 090s yeah he's a pro hardwood cutter/logger he still runs saws daily can't help him self even though he's retired this is him tough old bugger he's a bushy doesn't like his pic taken lol
View attachment 888074

Great pic

Lots of experience between the both of you - thanks for sharing what you have!

I hope to make it out Tuesday, it’s set to be perfect weather / temps - raining at the moment.

With the fires in Perth, this rain we have is a true blessing and a welcome change to the heat we have had recently

 

[Ando81]

Used to work in the family business cutting railway sleepers and bridge timber for over 20 years we had a mill and the logging side.
My dad started out as a cutter for the big mills up north in the 70s 80s running 090s yeah he's a pro hardwood cutter/logger he still runs saws daily can't help him self even though he's retired this is him tough old bugger he's a bushy doesn't like his pic taken lol
View attachment 888074

What a legend, I could chat to blokes like him for hours. Just to hear their stories of the bush and to take on some of their knowledge of the bush and chainsaw maintenance [emoji1305]

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

I totally forgot to mention! The other day I brought a Stihl Fg2 file guide because of the conversation and info shared by @Philbert @rogue60 @trains and a few others about tooth length and consistency. So although I was reluctant to obsess over tooth length, I want you to know that the advice and guidance didn’t fall on deaf ears, I’m very open and appreciate solid advice, even if I have my laser focus goggles on and don’t listen the first time or I am fighting an internal battle of what advice would best serve me if I hear conflicting info.

I tried it for quite a while the day it arrived on a couple chains and just couldn’t get on with it, however it could very well be that I’m trying to achieve set shapes / profiles with the mindset of how I work with a file freehand and maybe that just doesn’t translate with fixed systems as easy as I thought. Who knows. It’s well built and machined. Though the darn depth knob loosens and adjusts the chain position so I put a nut on it. Also the stop bar doesn’t contact the brass bushing square and thus doesn’t really have enough contact area to spin the bushing - it just rubs it. It’s well built, but there are a number of nuances one has to learn to get the most out of it.

For now it’s back in it’s box as last time I just got frustrated with it. If I get a buyer I’d let it go, we’ll see.

If it wasn’t clamped down I probably would have thrown it across the room!

I’m sure I’ll revisit it as an when my knowledge and experience of sharpening as a whole improves, for now it’s packed away out of sight!

pleased to say I have tried it and am aware that anything takes time to understand and get to grips with.

 

[Westboastfaller]

Here's a couple of pics of my filing. It's nothing fancy as I stated the secret to my chains cutting well in hardwood is keeping the cutters close to the same length keeping set close left side and right side as chain was designed probably not worth doing in soft butter wood.
The type of hardwood I cut this works very good for me.
There is no one method this is how you do it worldwide. It blows my mind some guy's think timber is the same worldwide and offer there way as the only way.
It's all about finding what works best on an individual level taking in account the different types of timber worldwide and adjusting accordingly.

This is .404 RS chisel chain. I use a 7/32 file on .404 right to the end of it's life. And no I don't clean or "get the gullet" as they say for hardwood I actually feel it can slow the cutting on basic work chain but that's just my opinion.
I give the file 10deg down it keeps the file parallel to the top plate of the cutter as Stihl RS has 10deg sloping in on the top plate just look down the chain to see this. I personally feel it cut's better with the 10deg down than 0deg on RS in the harder timber.
On semi chisel it having a 0deg top plate I sometimes give the file 10deg down and sometimes I don't.
Now this is just what works for me on a good work chain it's not a this is how to do it everyone should experiment and find what works best for them.
I will add IMHO there is nothing wrong with chisel chain in reasonable clean wood same as there is nothing wrong with semi chisel chain holding an edge longer in not so clean timber they both have there place they give us options for a reason.

This chain is a little aggressive with hook (for me) as I've been cutting Stringy Bark and it's like butter to cut.
View attachment 888049


The 10deg slopping in top plate on RS makes a V add or don't add 10deg down see what feels better in the wood you are cutting.
View attachment 888051

Great post. Much respect!!!

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

Back behind the saw sharpening the chain at 80 degrees top plate cutting angle to test in that harddddd wood. Also I’m keeping the teeth within 0.5mm length of the others to test that too. I’m pleasantly surprised at the ease at which it is to keep them this close just by eye.

I can see myself wanting to learn race chain sharpening in the future. I generally find sharpening therapeutic unless I feel forced / have a time constraint to meet. Has anyone here done race chain sharpening? I have been told that finding the nitty gritty info to be the Fort Knox of the chainsaw world!



I have also tweaked how my thumb and fingers hold the file to clear the pieces of wood to use the full length of the file:

 

[Philbert]

Has anyone here done race chain sharpening? I have been told that finding the nitty gritty info to be the Fort Knox of the chainsaw world!

There are threads on this, here, and in other forums, that you can find with a search.

Usually, it involves removing as much of the chain mass as possible to reduce weight (flattening rivet heads, 'dog-boning' tie straps, minimizing cutter heads and depth gauges), then filing the cutting angles to only last for 3 cuts (2 down, and 1 up). Creates a very fragile chain, compared to a 'work' chain. Lots of breakage and parts flying off. But, if you are trying to win a race, or just interested in the principles behind them, it's worth a read through some of those threads.

BTW, at some of our informal, GTG races, I have seen people win with stock chains, including low-kickback versions, based on technique over 'special filing techniques'.

Philbert

 

[chipper1]

There are threads on this, here, and in other forums, that you can find with a search.

Usually, it involves removing as much of the chain mass as possible to reduce weight (flattening rivet heads, 'dog-boning' tie straps, minimizing cutter heads and depth gauges), then filing the cutting angles to only last for 3 cuts (2 down, and 1 up). Creates a very fragile chain, compared to a 'work' chain. Lots of breakage and parts flying off. But, if you are trying to win a race, or just interested in the principles behind them, it's worth a read through some of those threads.

BTW, at some of our informal, GTG races, I have seen people win with stock chains, including low-kickback versions, based on technique over 'special filing techniques'.

Philbert

If your angles only last for 3 cuts you won't get far in most races as you'll need to make more cuts, I don't see many guys working a chain over last minute to make more cuts. Also when racing technique is key as you were saying so you have to be able to practice with a chain the way its set up and in similar wood to what you will be running in so you don't want it to be so sharp you loose the edge cutting wood. The main things that kill a race chain are, knots, guys hitting the ground, bark, guys hitting whatever is supporting the wood.
The keys to winning, fast saw, fast chain, don't suck.

 

[Philbert]

If your angles only last for 3 cuts you won't get far in most races as you'll need to make more cuts,

How would your 'race chains' differ from your 'work chains'?
How would each perform / hold up if used in the other application?

Philbert

 

[chipper1]

How would your 'race chains' differ from your 'work chains'?
How would each perform / hold up if used in the other application?

Philbert

Cutters equal length, side plates stoned to be sure the set is the same on every cutter for maximum efficiency and equal pull for each individual cutter.
This would help in any cutting scenario, but any cutter that was extremely short from being damaged would loose that efficiency. That would be fine though since there are other objectives such as saving money over a third of a second in the cut, I see no reason to file or grind all cutters back .040 when there are a few that have damage.
Heels clipped, this will make the chain faster in every situation I've used them in and can be done right from when a chain is new. One thing to take into consideration is that if you remove material from the lower portion of the heel you loose the ability to put them in a grinder or any type of fixture down the as the grinder/fixture/jig uses the back of the cutter to set the length of each cutter, So you need to make clip each heel the same if you want the working corner to come out equal with the other cutters. Clipping the heels makes a chain bore cut very smooth, and much faster in my experience.
More angle on the underside of the top plate and inside of the side plate. Side plate forward lean(hook on round filed chain) mild enough to where the chain would self feed well, but wasn't grabby, as this will help with consistency and changeovers(somewhat personal preference). I feel a smooth cutting chain is a great safety feature and it also helps to keep a chain sharper longer because I can control how close I get to the ground or any other objects I don't want to hit, it really helps me to be a much more efficient cutter and is one of my favorite benefits of square filed/ground chain over round.
The rakers are the last thing to work over, the front can be trimmed(weight reduction is the main reason as far as I know?) and they can be thinned and shaped, then the height needs to be set. Setting the height is crucial on a race chain because you need to be able to apply pressure to the saw without the saw bogging down. This is a place many get in trouble if they take the rakers down too far as chain speed is initially set based on the max rpms of the saw and the sprocket size. You want to find the best blend of remove as much material as possible without loosing rpms or getting the rpms below the power range of the saw. If you have a saw that's very peaky and will not hold good rpms you will not be able to run as large of sprocket to get the chain speed up(smaller cc saws typically), but if you can hold rpms even with a large sprocket then you can get away with much lower rakers. Similarly rakers are a final tuning to a chain that will make or break it when racing/cutting firewood or in most any situation, if they are not right everything else you did will fail as the whole "system" needs to function together and this is the final tuning of a chain and it makes or breaks everything else done.
There are many other things that can be done to a chain, but racing at a gtg isn't like being in a hotsaw competition as you saw guys win with lesser work on a chan than what I'm talking about, that not sucking part or getting the right end of a cant comes into play many times, but a good chain sure makes for a fun time.

Well tuned chain.

 

[rogue60]

Yep Tom once you get the round filing down pat move on square filing and race chain long way to go yet lol

 

[Ted Jenkins]

Hey Ted, this is semi chisel, all the chain I own, apart from one loop, is semi chisel.

On #82 it looks like chisel except for the last picture which looks like semi. If you bought a few rolls of semi I would think that is as good as it will get. I would say there are some different brands that are better than others however it is mostly hit and miss. I have found a few rolls that seem to have extra chrome then I go out of my way to get the exact same to find that the cutter are extra soft. Thanks

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

The head to head, chain test video!

1). 80 degree with even teeth hard wood profile, with the intention of seeing how it feels and self feeds.
Angles - 30/80/0

2). 15 minuet quick sharpen uneven teeth sharpened without obsession / much care or attention - mainly see what I can get away with at my current sharpening ability.
Angles - 30/60/0 (with variance between teeth of course)

3). New out of the box stihl chain.

 

[Mulemann]

Really appreciate your video! I just got a new Oregon grinder and cbn wheels. I’ve read and read all the different posts/theory’s on angle and was definitely confused. Many thanks to all the folks sharing their experiences/knowledge but especially Philbert! What I finally decided was to buy new chain (ms460, .375 & .063, and ms 260, ..325 & .063) put the ;w chain in my grinder and set the angles up to copy the new chain angle. Your video would seem to indicate I’m on the right track with factory settings.

I do understand there is a trade off for everything when it comes to chain sharpening. Fastest speed might not last the longest.

I cut/burn primarily standing dead elm (pretty hard wood) so I intend to tweak the angles to see what works best for the type of wood I cut. It was 17 below zero this morning and expected to be 21 below tomorrow. This weekend it will get up to 25 so I intend to get out and cut some frozen wood just to see how it goes. I generally get all my wood cut/split in the fall before it freezes but am thinking if these angles work well in frozen wood they ought to work better in hard wood thats not frozen. Anybody thoughts on the frozen wood theory?

 

[Philbert]

am thinking if these angles work well in frozen wood they ought to work better in hard wood thats not frozen

Hard wood and frozen wood angles are usually 25* top plate.

Let us know what you find out!

Philbert

 

[MagraAdam]

And here is both sides of the chain for side profile - again, no obsessing, just a quick 15 min job :

View attachment 887417View attachment 887416

G'day mate. I'm in Tasmania and cut 12 to 15 m3 of wood a year for myself (my house needs more insulation). Mostly Blue gum or stringy. Occasionally some peppermint gum if can find it. I have a ms391 and use a Stihl chain on it, and a ms170 with an after market chain. Both full chisel. Both always sharpened by hand with the 2 in 1 file. I'm still reading all of this thread, but just watching your video and I thought I'd mention that I only do about 3 strokes per tooth - are you taking off more metal than needed?

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

G'day mate. I'm in Tasmania and cut 12 to 15 m3 of wood a year for myself (my house needs more insulation). Mostly Blue gum or stringy. Occasionally some peppermint gum if can find it. I have a ms391 and use a Stihl chain on it, and a ms170 with an after market chain. Both full chisel. Both always sharpened by hand with the 2 in 1 file. I'm still reading all of this thread, but just watching your video and I thought I'd mention that I only do about 3 strokes per tooth - are you taking off more metal than needed?

Hey Adam! I’m from Perth WA I just take off as much steel as necessary to bring the edge back to sharp, sometimes it’s a few strokes, but if the tooth isn’t shaped correctly, damaged, If i re profile it, or need to remove the gullet, that will take more strokes, sometimes 30-40! it’s also worth mentioning that someone that has done hand filing longer than I have will likely achieve the same result in a quicker manner too with less passes as they will be more accurate and achieve the desire results more efficiently. Though I can’t be certain, I’m just guessing

I caught your post about your strimmer and noticed @trains has replied a few times there, all I can say is, without his (and a few others on here too of course) guidance I wouldn’t have the knowledge or experience on engines / saws / rebuilds / tuning I do. 12 or so full chainsaw rebuilds in the last year, everyone successful You’re In very good hands with his advice and guidance!

Re your chains, if it’s new or undamaged and you don’t need to do any of the above, a few strokes is normally all that’s needed, but don’t hesitate to do as many as you need to raise a burr and get the tooth sharp rather than have a set number of strokes in mind and repeating it for every tooth.

Warmest regards Tom.

 

[Philbert]

. . . I only do about 3 strokes per tooth - are you taking off more metal than needed?

Over the years we have had big differences in defining the word 'sharpen'. It became clear that some guys 'touch up' their edges on a regular basis, to 'maintain' a sharp edge. Others wait until the back and front of the cutter look about the same. So, the number of strokes, and amount of effort, required to 'sharpen' often varies between posts.

Philbert

 

[MagraAdam]

Over the years we have had big differences in defining the word 'sharpen'. It became clear that some guys 'touch up' their edges on a regular basis, to 'maintain' a sharp edge. Others wait until the back and front of the cutter look about the same. So, the number of strokes, and amount of effort, required to 'sharpen' often varies between posts.

Philbert

I generally 'sharpen'/'use the file' after every 2 tanks (or when i hit the dirt) - maybe that's excessive, but it's what works for me

 

[trains]

Over the years we have had big differences in defining the word 'sharpen'. It became clear that some guys 'touch up' their edges on a regular basis, to 'maintain' a sharp edge. Others wait until the back and front of the cutter look about the same. So, the number of strokes, and amount of effort, required to 'sharpen' often varies between posts.

Philbert

In the end, you have to remove the damage, or dull edge and make it sharp.
some teeth will take a few light wipes, others if they hit something and are badly rounded over will take a lunch break .

So when cutting, keep it sharp, you take off less when you keep it sharp, and cut more wood in less time.

The 2 in 1 is a good start, and develops good muscle memory, but as you can see, you can take it much further if you want to develop a mental illness