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Shaver Improvement Forum

Discussion in 'Firewood, Heating and Wood Burning Equipment' started by ngzcaz, Nov 16, 2008.

  1. wctech

    wctech ArboristSite Lurker

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    Water temp loss of 30 degrees

    I have been heating an old farm house (no insulation) with a 240 gallon Acme(shaver clone) OWB. I have cast iron radiators on the first floor and second floor, pressurized system with HX. I also am heating a shop about 150 feet away. I have 1 inch insulated pex underground. 1 pump to the house, 007, and one 007 pump sending water 150 feet one way, to the 3 radiators in the shop. I bought into the 1 inch theory, as being big enough to make the trip to and from the shop. I only need the temp high enough to keep the water from freezing in the shop. The boiler keeps up fine until the shop calls for heat. Then I get a 30 to 40 degree loss in them at the boiler. The boiler never gets a chance to fully recoup. Then the shop calls for heat again. For some reason my mind keeps thinking that the slower the water comes back to the boiler, the easier it will be to get heated back up to temp. That’s why I only have one pump doing the work. Would another pump on the return at the shop help cure this problem? Or are there any ideas that can help eleviate the huge heat loss in the water? If the shop does not call for heat I can keep up just fine in the house, but when heating both, I am having huge problems, besides blowing through the wood.
     
  2. projectsho89

    projectsho89 ArboristSite Operative

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    Sounds like it's time for a new sensor.

    The Ranco instructions includes a resistance/temperature chart. You might wan to grab the ohmmeter and double check it first.
     
  3. projectsho89

    projectsho89 ArboristSite Operative

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    Are the two zones (house, shop) in series or in parallel. Your description isn't clear to me.
     
  4. wctech

    wctech ArboristSite Lurker

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    The shop has 3 radiators run in series. The last radiator is hooked to the return line. The shop is lower than the boiler so they are not hooked to a pressure system. The water is pumped straight from the boiler to the radiators. I have an indoor thermometer and when the shop kicks on I can watch the temp drop like a stone. It takes alot of time for the boiler to recoup to 175, and when it's real cold and windy it never makes it back to temp before the shop calls for heat again. When this happens the water gradually keeps getting colder and colder. According to everything I have read the square footage is well below what is needed for my size boiler. The house keeps up no problem, even on windy cold days without the shop. I'm perplexed.
     
  5. david78

    david78 ArboristSite Member

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    What kind of insulation is on the line running to the shop? Any chance there's groundwater getting in around the pipe? My guess is you're losing heat to the ground. I have a similar setup in my garage; three radiators, 150' from the OWB. I don't have as big a temp loss as you do, but it's significant. I can tell from the snow melt over the line that I didn't get it insulated well enough. It really pains me to think about it but I'm probably going to have to dig it up and do it over.:mad:
     
  6. wctech

    wctech ArboristSite Lurker

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    The pipe is insulated and placed into 4 inch drain pipe. It is 4 feet in most places, but it rises a bit by the boiler. I have had 12 inches of snow over it and not seen any type of melting. I can put a strap on thermometer on the supply side in the shop and see what the temp is coming in. Most suggest another pump on the last radiator return line. My thought are that that will just make the water colder faster, but I might be wrong. If I leave the door open on the boiler the water temp catches up in about an hour. I also though about putting a larger blower on the boiler, but not sure if that would accomplish anything except burning more wood. I am starting to think the radiators were not such a good idea for the shop. I wonder if a hx in a modine might be a better choice. Then the water should not cool down as fast. Just a thought.
     
  7. jmruggiero

    jmruggiero ArboristSite Lurker

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    is melting a little snow that big of a problem? what is the acceptable heat loss. i would think if they were buried 4ft.down there should be no noticeable snow melt, but bury the same line 2ft. down you probably will see snow melt. i melt some snow when it warms up, my lines are buried 2 ft.down and my water temp varies 1-2deg. in 145ft.

    what is an acceptable deg. loss in the typical run
     
  8. wctech

    wctech ArboristSite Lurker

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    I think the example was intended to let you know you are having heat loss on the way to the intended source. My run is 150 feet and I dont see a large heat loss until the water hits the cast iron radiators, then returns to the boiler. Sometime it is as much as 40 degrees. I checked the water returning after leaving the radiators on for about 30 minutes and it was around 140. That was with a strap on thermometer. I guess what puzzles me is why it is taking so long for the boiler to get back up to temp. The wood is dry, and the blower seems strong. I figure I am sending about 5 of 10 gallons of cold water back to the boiler ( 3 radaiators worth) when the shop first calls for heat. When I fill the boiler with cold water once a week I do not see the same drop, and it should be about the same amount going in.
     
  9. scag52

    scag52 ArboristSite Operative

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    I think i remember your post from awile ago. Did you ever try a 0011 pump ? That 007 is small for that run. I use a a hanging HX in my shop with very good results. Only run the temp at 148*. Do you have a solenoid for the blower and a ranco thermostat ?
     
  10. wctech

    wctech ArboristSite Lurker

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    I never tried the 011, but would the extra 007 on the return line acomplish the same thing? I just cant seem to get a grip on this problem. In my mind I think it would just make the water colder faster, but I sure could be wrong. Does using a HX make the return water drop less than what the radiators do? It sure seems to in my house. It might be that the metal on radiators are so cold it takes all the heat to get them up and running correctly, then when they become hot it is time for them to shut down starting the same vicious cycle over again. Thanks for the help.
     
  11. scag52

    scag52 ArboristSite Operative

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    Well i dont have any experience with radiators but it seems they require a lot higher temps to do the same job. At least thats what I've seen. If i read it right you have three rads ?

    As for the pumps you should at least try adding a bigger pump or a second one to eliminate that possibility.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2011
  12. wctech

    wctech ArboristSite Lurker

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    I have 3 radiators run in series. The last one has the return line hooked to it. I also have radiators in the house, but they work fine, as long as the water temp does not get below 160. The house is 137 years old and not insulated. On the days with extreme winds, and below zero temps, I suplement with a pellet stove. On days of 0 degrees with little wind they keep up just fine, until the shop kicks in. I think I am going to go with the HX. Any type or brand that you would recomend? The shop is about 1000 SQ. It might be the easiest fix to my problem.
     
  13. scag52

    scag52 ArboristSite Operative

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    158k BTU Unit Heater Outdoor Furnace Boiler , MODINE - eBay (item 190290501818 end time Jan-20-11 17:13:36 PST)

    Heres the one i bought . I use it to heat a 32x48 12'ceilings w/ semi insulation.Works well. Its 135,000 btu's @ 180* water. He has other sizes too. They're a lot of money but made very nice. I originally used a line voltage dial therm .to control the fan but found it to be inacurate .I now use a ranco and its perfect.

    As for the wind , i remember something about a silo. Is that right. I found problems on windy days too. getting the stove out of it was the fix for me.
     
  14. scag52

    scag52 ArboristSite Operative

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    Here's a picture

    [​IMG]
     
  15. david78

    david78 ArboristSite Member

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    When I first put my system in I had a larger Grundfos pump on the run to the radiators in the garage and the small Armstrong 30 that came with the furnace running the HX in the house. I thought, longer run, bigger pump. I wasn't getting enough heat in the house so I contacted Shaver and they said the bigger pump needed to go to the HX even if it was a shorter run because there's more resistance to flow in the HX. The old radiators offer very little resistance to flow (unless they're plugged with junk) and don't need much of a pump. I switched pumps and it made a big difference in the house. I'm running a Taco 007 on the garage run now and it does fine (150' one way, 3 radiators, 24'x24' space) But if I turn the thermostat up in the garage, I burn a lot more wood, so I keep it around 45 unless I'm working in there. Just based on my limited experience, I don't think a larger pump would solve your problem.
     
  16. wctech

    wctech ArboristSite Lurker

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    Yes that looks that it should work. I did have a problem with creosote when I added any length to the chimney. Now I just let it go up a 10 foot peice 12 inch single wall and out the top of the corn crib. I take the piece of single wall down once a week and beat the creosote out of it and have had no problems since. I will try to keep the shop at 45 and see what happens, but Dave is right when you keep it any hotter you blow through the wood. I can only get 8 hr burns at best when its real cold. I think the HX might be the cure. Thanks for all the help, I will let you guys know how it comes out.
     
  17. jmruggiero

    jmruggiero ArboristSite Lurker

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    do your pumps run 24/7? is your blower getting enough air for a quicker recovery rate? how much lift do you have.
     
  18. wctech

    wctech ArboristSite Lurker

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    The pump to the HX in the house runs 24/7 the pump too the shop only kicks in when heat is called for. I did a quick check on my fan, and found that some fiberglass insulation got sucked up into the vanes, clogging them up a bit. I have a spare blower so I replaced it, until I can clean the old one out. That should make a big difference. I could not see the vanes until the fan went off, then I lifted the flap on my modificated blower, exposing the clogged vanes. We will see how it goes today. When I leave the stove door open I can gain 1 degree per 45 seconds, lets see how close I come to that with the new blower.
     
  19. wctech

    wctech ArboristSite Lurker

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    The blower was the problem, clogged vanes. I still get a large loss when the radiators call for heat, but the recovery time is about 15 minutes instead of 90. Thanks to all for the help.
     
  20. yomax4

    yomax4 ArboristSite Lurker

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    Ranco

    Weird. I had a Ranco failure. It just went Blank and that was it. I had a spare all wired and ready to go. I did the simple install and the simple program to get it where I needed it. I set the Temp at 165 F. Differential at 5, H1. Done. Soon my 250 was boiling and steaming. I looked at the Ranco and it said 165 degrees. I took my infered thermometer and tested several spots and it read 210-214. The fan was still running so I kept clicking it down to see where the fan would shut off and I got all the way down to 100 on the readout and the fan shut off. I let it cool down and left everything until it fired back up at that 100 degree setting. the fan kicked on and I checked with the infered at it said 169 degrees. I guess my Ranco is off by 69 degrees. Yes it is on F not C. Everything has been working great all day but the readout is incorrect. Can anyone think of something I may have done wrong.??
     

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