So called EPA rated furnaces

[leon]

water stoves and boilers.............................

Adding to what Keith has said from my perspective
as someone who has examined water stoves and
decided they waste too much fuel for the money involved:
.
Why dont manufacuters use more firebrick and more
water to create a huge thermal mass and solve all the
issues about particulates by having a firebox half filled
with good fire brick to aid in burning?



I would seriously consider a water stove that is fully insulated and
has a thousand or two thousand gallons of water and a fire box that was
24 by 24 by 24 and filled half full with firebrick and a piece of
channel iron covering the coal grates making it 12 by 24 by 24
making the grates exposed square area to 288 square inches
to increase combustion air without a forced or induced draft.

My 12 by 24 by 36 inch firebox is half full of fire brick and I have little
to no smoke with a wood and coal boiler that is 30 years old next year.

Yes I have lost half the volume of my 24 inch deep firebox
but the near zero smoke is something I can live with for
sure as I have too large a chimney which is an exposed 8 by 12
tile lined 16 footer.



Once you show people how easy it to heat this amount of water quickly
you would have a lot of interested customers with cash in hand.

 

[CrappieKeith]

Well Lampmfg...sounds like you need to get back to your wood guy and get your stories straight or at least get him to verify what you are saying...but that's besides the point of this thread that you are derailing.

I also see you spent big money..I hope that while in the comment period you do not see a change in the B415.10...it would be a shame for you to have to retest because of any changes. Just so you know I've never claimed your vapor fire is not efficient or that it's not a good choice for some home owners.
I do dispute how you go about with confusing percentages...and using lower heat value methods...the public needs to know that these are not real efficiencies like with other gas and oil furnaces....nor have they been found in a real world burning being everyone pretty much burns wood with some water in it..unlike the test which has no water in it as per the protocols in the LHV....

I'm also confused...you said that they are tested to B415.10 but in the literature it says lower heat value method....which test..oh never mind..I get it.

Again I'll reiterate...there is no EPA New Source Performance Standard(B415.10) hence no listed furnaces by the EPA...which is only about emissions...not efficiency.

If the republicans gain office it sounds like they want to dismantle the EPA...let the local states have control...not the Feds.

 

[Steve NW WI]

If the republicans gain office it sounds like they want to dismantle the EPA...let the local states have control...not the Feds.

Without getting into the politics of it, (or the politics of this thread for that matter), wouldn't that be a nightmare for all stove manufacturers, with possibly 5, 10, or even 50 different standards here, plus the Canadian standard to deal with?

 

[lampmfg]

Without getting into the politics of it, (or the politics of this thread for that matter), wouldn't that be a nightmare for all stove manufacturers, with possibly 5, 10, or even 50 different standards here, plus the Canadian standard to deal with?

It sure would unless you were in a state with lax regulations and your product was not very efficient or emission friendly than I guess it would be a blessing for some manufactures.

 

[Fyrebug]

Currently, Washington State has a different standard that has also been adopted by Oregon.

Yes it would make things worse especially for you Keith since the MFG's would have to build to the 'tightest' standard in order to sell in every states. If anything it makes things worse since some States like to outdo the others.

Let's keep in mind why a standard is not necessarily a bad thing. Currently in NY, MI and other states, various counties have outright banned Outdoor wood boilers and have severely restricted their use because of the smoke complain by neighbor. If you have a kid in the house with Ashtma, you'll know what I mean. If you are an OWB MFG this is very bad news. Your choice is to go out of business, find an other line of business or hope the feds can come up with some rules to ensure everybody is on the same playing field and save your industry. OWB can burn clean and there is technology that will make sure of it (unless you're an idiot that likes to burn tires and railway ties).

There are many web sites started by 'concerned citizens' who want to ban wood burning altogether in North America. They are getting some tractions in some circles. They wouldn't have much of an argument if the standards were updated so the industry would clean up its act. Either way, despite all the noise on you've read on this thread its a matter of survival for the MFG in the industry. Those who are not able to produce and prove their product is green and clean will end up being at the losing end no matter what happens.

The ones that complain the loudest about the new legislations are the ones unable/unwilling to spend the capital to update their product lines.

 

[lampmfg]

How big is your house and how much wood do you use? I said one thing and backed it up with proof. I can't help if the wood guy read off his invoice that was delivered to the shop last week 10/4/11 instead of the invoice from 7/24/11 that was delivered to the actual house like I said. I'm sure with the season he has been delivering a lot of wood and was just happy that his name got out there so he was a little shocked.

This test was only done to prepare us for the future EPA regulations and to make prospective customers aware of our great results. Most consumers prefer actual independent results instead of just saying that it is high efficiency like most manufactures claim. We are anticipating that we will have to retest when everything is completely finalized, and look forward to producing even better numbers when the time comes. I'll be happy anyways because everyone's numbers will be available so it's really going to help and not hurt. :biggrin:

So you don't find something wrong with the percentages we advertise again or say they are misleading... :msp_ohmy:

The test was completed to standard B415.10 the stack loss method, which was used to determine efficiency for the tax credit and allowed us to offer that to our customers. It gave results for both the HHV, which doesn't consider moisture and the LHV, which does consider the moisture.

VaporFire 100 8/5/10 HHV 77.5%, LHV 83.5%, .96 g/h emissions Fact
VaporFire 200 6/12,13/2010 medium burn HHV 78.3%, LHV 84.4%, .45 g/h emissions low burn HHV 80.1%, LHV 86.3%, .65 g/h emissions Fact

To be eligible for the tax credit all you needed was to have 75% for either the HHV or LHV which as you can see we achieved quite easily. The real impressive thing is the g/h of emissions and g/mj, which will be required in 2014.

"If the republicans gain office it sounds like they want to dismantle the EPA...let the local states have control...not the Feds."
This might be good for certain manufactures, but as a proud manufacturer of a very green product and a person who considers breathing the cleanest air possible a good thing, I find it a bad idea...

 

[CrappieKeith]

Without getting into the politics of it, (or the politics of this thread for that matter), wouldn't that be a nightmare for all stove manufacturers, with possibly 5, 10, or even 50 different standards here, plus the Canadian standard to deal with?

It sure would be a night mare Steve...just as it now with furnace manufactures lying about being EPA certified.
I've invested many days talking to industry pros and it was said many times over for me to do a write up about this issue...hence this thread. It was said not to name names which I initially attempted...however that was thwarted by the trespassers themselves.

However ,I am 1 guy with 1 voice and it will be heard.
I just love the assumptions by these companies..I made the comment about Republicans and they jump on us about our lack of compliance to a standard that is not finalized yet. Even the testing labs say it looks like we have a standard ,but we can not guarantee the testing protocols. You are certainly able to do some pre testing to see how close you are...at thousands a test...just what they want..a pay check.
...Yukon's have been using up flow gasification for decades..this is not new.
I've seen some in house testing...I have the full confidence when it becomes time to have the B415.10 there will be no issues.

Back to the topic at hand....the Caddy is not an EPA certified furnace.

 

[Fyrebug]

Back to the topic at hand....the Caddy is not an EPA certified furnace.

Well... the one nice thing about this thread Keith is it keeps bumping up to the top and provides free publicity for our companies!

I'd like to know how the users feel about it though... :msp_sneaky:

 

[Felman]

Grandfathering

If I buy a furnace & it gets outlawed, can I get a refund?

 

[Fyrebug]

If I buy a furnace & it gets outlawed, can I get a refund?

Won't get outlawed. Just like there are millions of pre-EPA stoves working just fine in the wilds of America...

 

[EXCALIBER]

Some EPA testing is better than no testing. I trust EPA more than an independent company trying to sell me something. I am sure many feel the same when looking for a new stove/furnace, to have an independent third party look them over and test, than to buy them based on a statement that does not have to be proved.

CrappieKeith has a problem with any furnace being tested and from what I am gathering any EPA tested stove based on his posts and positions on this site. Yes Keith you are one man, and you have a voice and a right to it, but you also forgot that you are acting as a representative of Yukon. I am sure I am not alone in this but as people read your stance, they, like myself, will be turned away from ever buying a Yukon or anything from someone, or a representative of that company which you are, as rude, misguided and unprofessional as you are.

That being said Kudos to Fyrebug and lampmfg for acting as professionals, WELL DONE GENTLEMEN!

 

[Whitespider]

Some EPA testing is better than no testing. I trust EPA more than an independent company trying to sell me something. I am sure many feel the same when looking for a new stove/furnace...

Wow! NOT ME! I don't trust anything the EPA does, or says... fact is, I look at anything from the EPA as a corrupt lie driving some sort of agenda, until proven without a shadow of a doubt to be otherwise. Which, as of yet, has never been proven to me about anything from the EPA... most evidence I see about EPA BS seems to back-up my suspicions of corruption, lies and agendas. Ethanol? Man made global climate change? Wind and solar power? Renewable fuels? Reduction in the production of coal? We can't drill in ANWR because the Polar Bears might get offended? First we can't drill in shallow water because it's too dangerous to the environment, and now we can't drill in deep water for the same reasons... while the countries around us drill in those same waters, spilling more oil every year than the U.S. has in it's entire history? The banning of lead shot for hunting? The R12/Ozone crap? Strangled and restricted engines? Countless chemicals banned outright? Cap and Trade? Did you know they even have a page or two on Bed Bugs and Volcanoes... give me a friggin' break! And now they're putting their fingers in wood burning appliances?

Whenever I hear the words, "E P A", I shudder 'cause I just know it's gonna' cost me money, time and convenience. It's all BS!

 

[Steve NW WI]

Well... the one nice thing about this thread Keith is it keeps bumping up to the top and provides free publicity for our companies!

I'd like to know how the users feel about it though... :msp_sneaky:

I think all this bickering puts all 3 of you in a bad light.

As a VERY potential customer of one of you in the next 12 months, what I'd really like to see are some sort of side by side comparison, all using the same wood and testing system. Sadly, I don't see this happening soon enough for me.

 

[Hedgerow]

Some EPA testing is better than no testing. I trust EPA more than an independent company trying to sell me something. I am sure many feel the same when looking for a new stove/furnace, to have an independent third party look them over and test, than to buy them based on a statement that does not have to be proved.

CrappieKeith has a problem with any furnace being tested and from what I am gathering any EPA tested stove based on his posts and positions on this site. Yes Keith you are one man, and you have a voice and a right to it, but you also forgot that you are acting as a representative of Yukon. I am sure I am not alone in this but as people read your stance, they, like myself, will be turned away from ever buying a Yukon or anything from someone, or a representative of that company which you are, as rude, misguided and unprofessional as you are.

That being said Kudos to Fyrebug and lampmfg for acting as professionals, WELL DONE GENTLEMEN!

And that, folks is where we're headed... The government is not your knight in shining armor... Our manufacturers in this country have been regulated nearly to death... Psshhh... And you trust the EPA...??? Guess you better put your helmet back on...
:sure:

 

[lampmfg]

Over regulation is not a good thing, but in Northern, MN I enjoy the clean air and feel that everyone deserves the same. Some regulation and standards are necessary and if it isn't mandated then who will actually comply? You see where lack of regulation got us on Wall Street especially with the housing market... Do you really believe the companies and corporations will sacrifice their bottom lines looking out for consumers interested? Or do you think that they will produce what they can make the most money at even if it isn't necessarily as safe or efficient as possible, because I do? Unfortunately the government and hence the EPA is far from perfect but what other options are out their?

 

[Fyrebug]

I think all this bickering puts all 3 of you in a bad light.

As a VERY potential customer of one of you in the next 12 months, what I'd really like to see are some sort of side by side comparison, all using the same wood and testing system. Sadly, I don't see this happening soon enough for me.

I apologize if you had to suffer through this series of unnecessary exchanges over the past while. Hard to hold back when you do this for a living!

If you are shopping for a furnace, do your homework and remember the best sales people for the product will not be those paid by the company but rather the users of the products. So by all means, don't pay attention to us... but listen to those on this board and other places who actually own one of these appliances and ask them a bunch of questions. We'll support your choice.

All the best!

 

[Hedgerow]

Over regulation is not a good thing, but in Northern, MN I enjoy the clean air and feel that everyone deserves the same. Some regulation and standards are necessary and if it isn't mandated then who will actually comply? You see where lack of regulation got us on Wall Street especially with the housing market... Do you really believe the companies and corporations will sacrifice their bottom lines looking out for consumers interested? Or do you think that they will produce what they can make the most money at even if it isn't necessarily as safe or efficient as possible, because I do? Unfortunately the government and hence the EPA is far from perfect but what other options are out their?

Talking points do not pass muster with me.... I do, however, have an answer to your question... Consumer demand!!! You build a furnace that doesn't smoke? Good!!! That's a he'll of a marketing tool... Use it... Don't ask for more regulations...

 

[Highbeam]

I don't think it casts a bad light on you three. It shows about what I would expect, that all three of you are passionate about your widgets and promote them every chance you get. It hasn't quite gotten down to the level of bickering. There is a pretty clear difference in beliefs and eventually you will have to agree to disagree because none of you will be changed IMO.

As a consumer I would much prefer to know the position of each company than to have to guess or assume. Please continue to contribute to the site even after this thread has run its course.

I would be happy to own furnaces from any of you.

 

[Whitespider]

Better check your facts lampmfg… The housing fiasco was the result of regulations, or the fall-out of regulation… not because of “lack of regulation”.

The lending institutions had self-imposed guidelines for lending money. But then Jimmy Carter and his crew got involved, and through regulation, forced those lending institutions to lower their standard. Carter and his liberal followers believed every American “deserved” their own home, even if they couldn’t afford it.

Reagan and Bush #1 tried to get rid of those regulations, but were slammed down in congress every time.

Enter Bill Clinton and his crew… Who also felt every American “deserved” their own home, even if they couldn’t afford it. The Clinton administration added even more regulations, forcing the lending institutions to lower their guidelines even more yet. When those institutions expressed their (understandable) concerns about these under-secured loans the Clinton administration guarantied those loans by allowing the bundling and sale on the market, causing home values to sky-rocket falsely.

Now comes Bush #2… Who tried 7 different times to reverse what the Clinton administration had done. Bush #2 and his crew warned that the regulations imposed by Clinton would eventually crash the housing market, making it impossible for even those that could currently afford a home to get one, and that many would lose what they had when values crashed…

REGULATION caused the housing fiasco… not the lack of even more regulation.
Christ man, when does it end?

 

[Fyrebug]

There is a pretty clear difference in beliefs and eventually you will have to agree to disagree because none of you will be changed IMO.

Actually, Lampmfg & I are pretty much on board with each others beliefs on this matter. So does the EPA, HPBA, DOE, various scientists, respected industry type and others too many to mention.

Beliefs in this case is not 'faith'. If its backed up with science and proven by evidence (circumstancial or otherwise) it is called 'Facts'. Any thing else requires credulity.