So called EPA rated furnaces

[Steve NW WI]

Just to clarify, I wasn't asking for more regulation. A recognized industry standard is fine by me.

For you farm boys out there, think back before standardization in farm machinery, multiple hitch systems, no common PTO placement, and brand specific hydraulic couplers. More recently, CANBUS standards for communication between machines. All of this done voluntarily by the industry, not govt, because they realized it would be mutually beneficial.

 

[lampmfg]

Better check your facts lampmfg… The housing fiasco was the result of regulations, or the fall-out of regulation… not because of “lack of regulation”.

The lending institutions had self-imposed guidelines for lending money. But then Jimmy Carter and his crew got involved, and through regulation, forced those lending institutions to lower their standard. Carter and his liberal followers believed every American “deserved” their own home, even if they couldn’t afford it.

Reagan and Bush #1 tried to get rid of those regulations, but were slammed down in congress every time.

Enter Bill Clinton and his crew… Who also felt every American “deserved” their own home, even if they couldn’t afford it. The Clinton administration added even more regulations, forcing the lending institutions to lower their guidelines even more yet. When those institutions expressed their (understandable) concerns about these under-secured loans the Clinton administration guarantied those loans by allowing the bundling and sale on the market, causing home values to sky-rocket falsely.

Now comes Bush #2… Who tried 7 different times to reverse what the Clinton administration had done. Bush #2 and his crew warned that the regulations imposed by Clinton would eventually crash the housing market, making it impossible for even those that could currently afford a home to get one, and that many would lose what they had when values crashed…

REGULATION caused the housing fiasco… not the lack of even more regulation.
Christ man, when does it end?

Facts? I guess it depends on what television station you get your news from. The Republicans had nothing to do with the housing fiasco, just like Bank of America and the rest of the huge corporate banks really had a problem lending to everyone that could breathe right? Wrong, because as long as they had money to pad the pockets of those CEO's and shareholders they were taking it... So your saying that there wouldn't have been any corporate greed as long as there wasn't regulation. We will agree to disagree on the regulation versus deregulation. Enough about the politics because that's a no win battle just look at our countries mess in Washington.

All I'm saying is that a recognized standard to hold everyone accountable with while putting information in black and white for the consumer would be great. Hopefully it would also take emissions and efficiency into consideration.:msp_rolleyes:

 

[Fyrebug]

Oh no... Politics?!?

Pretty soon we'll have someone quoting scriptures and that'll be the end of all polite conversation!

Better stop now while we're ahead.

How about them Detroit Lions?

 

[Steve NW WI]

Oops, Fyrebug just offended da Packer faithful among us

 

[Whitespider]

Well lampmfg, you’re the one that brought the housing fiasco into this… not me.
You’re the one that said it was lack of regulation that caused the housing fiasco… not me.
You’re the one that compared EPA wood stove regulations to the housing fiasco… not me.
And now you’re the one who is now trying to place, or shift, or whatever some sort of blame for the housing fiasco onto a political party… not me.
And you’re the one who believes this somehow supports your argument for more regulation on our lives… not me.

I merely pointed out the fallacy of your analogy… nothing more. I merely pointed out that it was, in fact, regulation that caused the housing fiasco and your comparison was invalid. I merely pointed out that the whole housing fiasco played out because government (and I couldn’t give less of a crap if it was Republican or Democrat controlled government) regulated business into doing things they were not comfortable with… namely, forcing lending institutions to loan money to people they knew could not pay it back. Lend institutions, like all business, are in business to make money… There just ain’t no way in he!l they would have made bad, under-secured loans to people they knew couldn’t pay it back if they hadn’t been regulated into it… ‘CAUSE THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN BAD BUSINESS! Everything that happened after that is the fall-out from government imposing regulations on business!!! Which is exactly what happens every time the government (or the ridiculous EPA) starts regulating business?

We don’t need regulation… the constitution only supports very narrow and specific regulation, and the EPA don’t fall under that. For example, we don’t need the EPA to regulate toxic waste, we only need legislation making it illegal, a criminal offense to dump it in our rivers (or where ever)… then let law enforcement handle it from there.

But if you want to believe Government is your savior, that government will make it all better… well go ahead and believe, I don’t give-a-####. Just don’t use fallacies, invalid comparisons’, emotion or rhetoric to support your position ‘cause I’ll call you on it every ####ing time.

And by-the-way, I think for myself and form my own opinions… I don’t need any television station to do that for me… for that matter, I don’t even watch television more than maybe an hour a week or the occasional football game.

 

[Hedgerow]

Facts? I guess it depends on what television station you get your news from. The Republicans had nothing to do with the housing fiasco, just like Bank of America and the rest of the huge corporate banks really had a problem lending to everyone that could breathe right? Wrong, because as long as they had money to pad the pockets of those CEO's and shareholders they were taking it... So your saying that there wouldn't have been any corporate greed as long as there wasn't regulation. We will agree to disagree on the regulation versus deregulation. Enough about the politics because that's a no win battle just look at our countries mess in Washington.

All I'm saying is that a recognized standard to hold everyone accountable with while putting information in black and white for the consumer would be great. Hopefully it would also take emissions and efficiency into consideration.:msp_rolleyes:

Industry standards? Yes... Government regulation so we can all breath? BS!!! Once again... Your talking points don't pass muster with me...

 

[MNfarmer]

Well I've been following this thread a couple days now and decided to add my thoughts. I bought a Yukon wood furnace in 2008 and guess what, it makes creosote. Maybe not as much as some but it still does. Last spring I went up to Tower MN and looked at the Kuuma's just out of curiosity and I can say they burn with no smoke and create no creosote. Not saying the Yukons are a bad furnace, I think they are a very well built furnace, but Kuuma's claims of no smoke and no creosote are fact!
Now to add a couple quotes from Keith,

Our furnaces stay above that level and do not creosote up post 14

I've done nothing but be as forthright as possible on this forum for over 1700 posts. post 55

All I've asked is that there be a bit of truth in marketing post 25

Ok, didn't I just say that mine creates creosote?? I initially set mine up the way they said and burned dry seasoned wood! While yes Keith you are extremely knowledgeable, I wonder how you can claim "truth in marketing" when you claim your furnaces don't creosote up and yet I had creosote in my chimney. I also recall a house fire we were called to in town here 7 or 8 years ago which was caused by a chimney fire in a house that was being heated by a locally produced furnace that claims they don't creosote up.

 

[CrappieKeith]

OK I'm guilty...just as Lampa reminded me a few posts ago about the variances in the wood turning to gas and then burning process.
If a user burned our furnace hot enough it would never make creosote. In the real world and I'm guilty of this..I'll load my furnace up even when it's very mild out.Sure I can get 20 hrs out of a load but it'll be just creeping along...and it will make creosote. I guess I figure I'd just as soon clean the flue then write a check to the oil guys...but I'm only brushing it out an extra time so it's no big deal. There is no one else home to load it....and I hate re lite fires. I could burn small stuff for good hot fires and let the fire burn out using the massive amounts of thermal mass to maintain some heat in my home although the fire is out..I guess I'm too lazy in that regard..my time ..attention seems to be how fast I can get to the lake when I'm done working here and on the weekends I'll spend 15 hrs. a day on the lake...open water or ice.

Someone awhile back said something about the lack of professionalism I'm showing by throwing the flag and calling foul. It sure is funny how when the messenger delivers the bad news he is called a liar,non professional...also to drag my concern out and twist it into something else questioning my integrity.
Last night I laid in bed and could not sleep due to this thread...this whole thing reminds me of when I was in my 20's where just starting a new job...selling Electrolux vac door to door.
I had sold 11 over the weekend and when I was done that late Sunday evening the district mgr comes rolling up the street in his Cadillac. He stops me and invites me into his ride for a chat. After some time he asks that on Mon. when I went to the local Mpls. branch to turn in my sales that I should go to the busiest part of the counter where all of the other sales people where. They consisted of full timers,part timers and some timers. I was to elbow my way in and state...LET A REAL SALESMAN IN.
Boy...did that go over like a fart in church. I made many enemies on that day. It did accomplish for the divisional manger his goal. That was to lite a fire under the butts of complacent sales people....their thinking was they were not gonna let some snot nosed wet behind the ear kid show them up. Sales went through the roof..his plan worked well for him.

So a few weeks ago I was asking some questions. I was told to contact the EPA to see what their stance was on the subject.
It was also suggested that I write up an article about the answer...I was cautioned to not use names. I did this...so here I sit feeling like that 20 year old elbowing to the counter getting all of the negative stuff.

Yup...I've made some people mad...I knew that would happen.

So where does this leave us.....

I'd like to say that I'm not against the EPA...although I do think the government does over reach..like out in Ca. where they said all 18 yr old kids and younger can't go to tanning salons or the McDonalds Happy Meals are banned. I'm thinking it should be the parents choice on what to let their children do.
I'm also not a big fan of paying into a SS system for 35 years only to find that the gov says well you are not going to get what you were entitled...you may get nothing at all.
I'm not a big fan of the bailout were millions of people lost their retirement..I lost 60% of what I had . I'm not a big fan of a lot of things our gov. does....however when we have a multitude of people complaining standards or laws get made.
When we have smoke dragons out there someone needs to "force" them to comply with the peoples wishes.
A note...most of the push come from out west were smoke gets trapped in the valleys.Ergo WA. &OR. statutes...and that's fine.

I guess I've come to the conclusion that..
#1 you can not fight the online dragon and expect to win.
#2 you can only help those those that want your help.
#3 and no matter what you do or say someone will be there with their opinions...good or bad.

So as I've said before...my next response here..ya right...will be the EPA's response from their legal dept.

Oh...Fryebug..I let this thread alone several times only to be questioned or blamed or attacked..so yes I came back to try to explain further...if that makes me guilty of the bump...I'm it.

 

[cfarms]

I to have been following this thread. I also bought a Yukon furnace years ago, set it up to specs, and created creosote like crazy. Was told I'm not burning it hot enough. I started burning it hotter which resulted in a very long crack in the fire box. Also, I am on the fire department that responded to the fire that was mentioned and it was heated with said brand furnace. So instead of bickering back and forth about all this testing and whether it's legit or not, talk to owners of these different furnaces and find out how they really burn!!!

 

[MNfarmer]

So Keith,

I thought they didn't make creosote?? But now they do, if they idle. So how many of us can sit at home all day long and throw small pieces of wood in our furnaces to keep a hot enough fire going to keep the chimney clean?? I'm betting more than a few of us are in the same boat you are..(working during the day) and we have to load our furnaces up before we go. So if there are people doing the same thing you are wouldn't that mean that they are producing creosote in their chimneys as well?? To claim a furnace can produce no creosote when (burned hot enough) doesn't seem like a very real world concept. Where is the "truth in marketing" there??

 

[CrappieKeith]

I'm not going there Brandon...I've already been put on the spot not being very professional.
You know where the shop is and where my office is.You have always been welcome to come down for a visit. As a matter of fact since you are so close I'm not opposed to making a visit to your home and check out your install to see if I can spot any trouble areas that might be causing you issue.

Things to look for when excessive creosote is present.....
Lack of make up air
Cold flue
Over sized flue
Too many bends in flue
Too long of horizontal flue run to thimble
Too slow of draft speed
Wood too wet
Blower set too fast
Thermostat above or to close to heat register
Too large of an appliance for the home
Flue height not tall enough
Too large of loads for the call for heat


The house fire...that was my house. The flue did not cause the fire. The fire was on the wall..it started low to the floor....my ex said she was gonna burn the house in the divorce...2 weeks later it's on fire..and yes her car was all packed and the kids were sleeping down stairs.
I have the same flue liner in it...it never failed. Had the furnace started the fire next to the wall the fire would have started higher where the heat is not at the floor. The fire Marshal sure did drop the ball here. I had all of the proper clearances too...just to get the facts straight.


Now Curt...if you'd like to come in as I asked months ago when I 1st learned of your issue on your 13 yr. old furnace & so that we can work out a solution ...if not that's ok too...but now I see your motivation for speaking up...I've always treated you right and I've always been here to keep earning your business.

 

[maynardk69]

yukons the best

I've had a Yukon in my 550 square foot trailer for five years now. It keeps me, my old lady,our two kids and our three dogs and two cats toasty warm in the dead of winter. I usually get a twelve hour burn time. Ive only had to have my stove pipe cleaned once in five years. I found that throwing some rock salt in when I burn helps reduce any build up. Couldn't be happier with my purchase.

 

[beerman6]

I'm not calling you a liar and I'm glad you called him, because I'm not one either as you can see from the attached the invoices. If your still not satisfied and since you record all calls why don't you three way call him and me (800-358-2049) so he can confirm where each load was dropped off at, because they are over 5 miles apart. :msp_tongue:

View attachment 202303

All I'm saying is:

PROVEN high efficiency=GOOD for consumers (spend less money on heating/necessity)
PROVEN low emissions=GREAT for the environment (less pollution/better air to breathe)
So if your furnace is both you get the best of both worlds!!

I know you will find something wrong with our product because you aren't selling it... What more would you like us to do? We spent around $20,000 (Not an easy decision especially when the economy was starting to tank) to have it independently tested by Intertek who is the #1 in the world at what they do so we could back up what we say. Not only that but we posted a PDF of the actual tests on our website, which is something that I have not seen from anyone else so I think it's a pretty ballsy thing to do!! If you got an extra $20,000 laying around and think the testing process is a sham or easy make my day, but just make sure you post the results.

Is your firewood guy Polish?(dates/invoice numbers)

I have no dog in this fight,I'm just a fat old drunk with a non-EPA wood eating,house heating OWB,but for some reason that caught my eyebulbs(bloodshot even)

 

[beerman6]

I've had a Yukon in my 550 square foot trailer for five years now. It keeps me, my old lady,our two kids and our three dogs and two cats toasty warm in the dead of winter. I usually get a twelve hour burn time. Ive only had to have my stove pipe cleaned once in five years. I found that throwing some rock salt in when I burn helps reduce any build up. Couldn't be happier with my purchase.

550 sqft? Hell,the farts I blame on the dog will heat that...

 

[beerman6]

and I cant believe I read this whole thread.

 

[lampmfg]

Is your firewood guy Polish?(dates/invoice numbers)

I have no dog in this fight,I'm just a fat old drunk with a non-EPA wood eating,house heating OWB,but for some reason that caught my eyebulbs(bloodshot even)

I wondered about his methods as well, but he must go backwards. Personally I have never even spoken or seen the guy. I just pay his bill when my dad gives it to me so I'm pretty sure he was shocked to get a call from Keith, but if anyone needs some firewood on the Iron Range my dad says he always does a good job.

I actually reread the thread the yesterday as well and I can't believe you made it through the whole thing. There has been many edits by all involved parties so I think a lot of the original posts have been modified. :smile2:

 

[Steve NW WI]

Is your firewood guy Polish?(dates/invoice numbers)

I have no dog in this fight,I'm just a fat old drunk with a non-EPA wood eating,house heating OWB,but for some reason that caught my eyebulbs(bloodshot even)

I suspect a possible reason is having multiple invoice pads in multiple vehicles, I used to keep a checkbook in each vehicle and one in the house, just hated carrying the thing. It made balancing the checking account a little more interesting, but worked for me. Now the check card gets 95% of the use.

 

[CrappieKeith]

So Keith,

I thought they didn't make creosote?? But now they do, if they idle. So how many of us can sit at home all day long and throw small pieces of wood in our furnaces to keep a hot enough fire going to keep the chimney clean?? I'm betting more than a few of us are in the same boat you are..(working during the day) and we have to load our furnaces up before we go. So if there are people doing the same thing you are wouldn't that mean that they are producing creosote in their chimneys as well?? To claim a furnace can produce no creosote when (burned hot enough) doesn't seem like a very real world concept. Where is the "truth in marketing" there??

After our chat...I hope you put a liner in your 10x13 flue..it will draft better and run cleaner.The real world concept here is to install them as the manuals indicate...any variance can and will cause a different out come in operation.

 

[MNfarmer]

After our chat...I hope you put a liner in your 10x13 flue..it will draft better and run cleaner.The real world concept here is to install them as the manuals indicate...any variance can and will cause a different out come in operation.

Would have been nice to know that I was going to have to spend close to another $600 on my chimney before buying a $3000 furnace! Would have also been nice if you would have given me a chance to get back home to write a reply as you had asked me too... I see I took too long and you did it for me!!!

 

[Fyrebug]

After our chat...I hope you put a liner in your 10x13 flue..it will draft better and run cleaner.

I dont know what the venting requirements for the Yukon's are, but I can vouch with Keith that venting is the engine that drives wood burning furnaces (wood stoves too for that matters). We MFG's go to great pains to outline in the manuals, marketing lit, web sites etc.. what venting is required to make the furnace happy.

The reason for this is draft is a weak force that needs to be helped along. This is one of those situation where bigger is definitely not better.

If you need to know the ins & outs of why that is we can start another thread.