So called EPA rated furnaces

[indiansprings]

I can say for a fact we've sold over a 1000 cord of hardwood firewood in the last 3.5 years and I do not have one customer who can heat a home of 3500 sq ft with 5 cord period. How many of you that are burning wood heat your house on 5 cords, I'm right on the OK/AR line in SW Missouri and haven't seen a customer do it yet. I have seen them do it with augmentation/ propane furnace/heat pump/electric heat but not on wood alone. I don't believe you can have that kind of heat retention.......period. To make a claim like that irregardless of mfg is irresponsible. How many customers can come close to duplicating it? These are the kind of claims that need to be regulated. Joe Blow buys one and burns 12 cord with a smaller home insulated to the same standard, would a jury of twelve have any issue with finding deceptive claims. If I were a mfg that is how I would review my brochures/advertising.....would it stand up to a jury of 12. Is it repeatable in the AVERAGE customers home. If it can't stand up to that test, the way I look at it is that you are blowing smoke up your customers hiney irregardless of whether you stove smokes or not. Show me a person that doesn't burn seasoned firewood and I'll show you a wood burning appliance that creates cresote, don't care how efficient your unit is, there is not one made that won't build up cresote, too many factors in play, moisture content of wood, flue temp, etc. I've also seen very well made units fail with improper installation and improper use, seen it happen on a Central Broiler and a Hardy, well made units, it's amazing what some people can do. It sounds like some people think they can get more than 100% efficiency to me, but hell, I'm just a firewood hack. It's already been demonstrated on this thread we can't keep our accounting straight.

 

[Fyrebug]

I don't believe you can have that kind of heat retention.......period. To make a claim like that irregardless of mfg is irresponsible. How many customers can come close to duplicating it? These are the kind of claims that need to be regulated.

You've got a point. So let's use wood stoves as an example since this argument with furnaces gets too 'heated' (pardon the pun). Wood stoves are a good example since they burn wood as well and have over 25 years of regulated (EPA) environment while customers are still able to buy non-EPA stoves at the time. What have we learned?

Since customers have a choice between an EPA and non EPA stoves you would think most would choose a non EPA unit since it cost about 1/2 of the EPA unit. We ourselves still make both EPA & non-EPA furnaces and stoves. However Over 95% of our sales are with the cleaner burning technology, to the point hardly anyone wants to buy our non-EPA wood furnaces and we are phasing them out this year.

Why since they are more expensive? Because the majority of users (tens of thousands of them BTW) realize the benefits of cleaner burning technology. Since they are designed to burn the smoke they create very little creosote if any. Smoke is a fuel, therefore you burn ALL the fuel. Customers who used to have an older non-EPA unit soon realize their wood consumption drops by a 1/3 rd to 1/2 per season. Not my words, theirs.

If I were a mfg that is how I would review my brochures/advertising.....would it stand up to a jury of 12. Is it repeatable in the AVERAGE customers home.

You are absolutely right and frankly I have never seen a MFG claim any kind of cord wood usage in their literature. Too many variables. Wood consumption reduction results is repeatable if properly installed and burning dry wood.

The best way customers are able to make an informed decision is if all MFG have a 'baseline' accountability for the units they make. For cars performance you have DOT standards. For wood stove emmissions you have EPA (which some furnaces such as Caddy have passed those tests), For wood furnaces in the USA there currently is not a standard although EPA will announce one likely in January. This will likely borrow a lot from the existing Canadian Standard CSA B415-10 standard for biomass (wood/pellet) furnaces.

Show me a person that doesn't burn seasoned firewood and I'll show you a wood burning appliance that creates cresote, don't care how efficient your unit is, there is not one made that won't build up cresote, too many factors in play, moisture content of wood, flue temp, etc. I've also seen very well made units fail with improper installation and improper use, seen it happen on a Central Broiler and a Hardy, well made units, it's amazing what some people can do.

You are absolutely right! Seen it many times myself. Some of our clean burning furnaces failed miserably because the user chose to burn wet wood, poor installation, improper venting etc... Listen, you can buy a Rolls Royce and pour apple juice in the gas tank it wont run either. Users and installers make all the difference.

 

[lampmfg]

I can say for a fact we've sold over a 1000 cord of hardwood firewood in the last 3.5 years and I do not have one customer who can heat a home of 3500 sq ft with 5 cord period. How many of you that are burning wood heat your house on 5 cords, I'm right on the OK/AR line in SW Missouri and haven't seen a customer do it yet. I have seen them do it with augmentation/ propane furnace/heat pump/electric heat but not on wood alone. I don't believe you can have that kind of heat retention.......period. To make a claim like that irregardless of mfg is irresponsible. How many customers can come close to duplicating it? These are the kind of claims that need to be regulated. Joe Blow buys one and burns 12 cord with a smaller home insulated to the same standard, would a jury of twelve have any issue with finding deceptive claims. If I were a mfg that is how I would review my brochures/advertising.....would it stand up to a jury of 12. Is it repeatable in the AVERAGE customers home. If it can't stand up to that test, the way I look at it is that you are blowing smoke up your customers hiney irregardless of whether you stove smokes or not. Show me a person that doesn't burn seasoned firewood and I'll show you a wood burning appliance that creates cresote, don't care how efficient your unit is, there is not one made that won't build up cresote, too many factors in play, moisture content of wood, flue temp, etc. I've also seen very well made units fail with improper installation and improper use, seen it happen on a Central Broiler and a Hardy, well made units, it's amazing what some people can do. It sounds like some people think they can get more than 100% efficiency to me, but hell, I'm just a firewood hack. It's already been demonstrated on this thread we can't keep our accounting straight.

I understand your argument about the jury of 12 and agree, but all I'm doing is giving a real life example. All I said is that my dad has a 3200 square foot house on Lake Vermilion that he heats with 5 cords of wood per year using the VaporFire 100. Is it exactly 3200 square feet? I'm not 100% sure, but that's what my dad said. It is a very good size house with a high ceiling in the living room and a basement that 3/4 finished (which he counts for the square footage). I would bet that it's at least 3,000. The upstairs is always hot when ever they are home and the basement is average, because no one is down there much with the kids out of the house. He has electric heat baseboards, for backup and when he says that his electric bill is cheaper in the winter, because he's not heating water with it I believe him. Personally I can't even stand going there on Christmas with the rest of the family because he keeps it so blasted hot. I'm used to my Virginia, MN steam heat which I have set at 61 during the day and 68-69 at night and costs me way to much $. I even got to pay for it in the summer $50 month when it's completely shut off. I bought the house when I was 25 and will definitely be installing a Kuuma and switching to wood when I can afford a new place. Most of the memories I have of growing up and dealing with my dad at the house usually give me the painful vision of him running around in his whitey tighties during the winter so you know it wasn't cold in the house. To this day when me and my buddies are out having a few beers and reminiscing they make jokes about being at my house and seeing my dad in those whitey tighties half of the time.:msp_biggrin:

Here is our most recent Firewood purchases in Quickbooks- 10/9/09-6 Cords (Shop), 6/4/10-4 Cords (House), 9/13/10-6 Cords (Shop), 7/24/11-4 Cords (House), 10/4/11-6 Cords (Shop). Do I think my dad has wood burning and usage down to a science? Yes, because it's all I can even remember him doing. He has not had another type of job since he has 25 and since he's 61 now that's quite a bit of experience. My uncle Nicky who lives in Soudan, MN and has about the same size house with not as good of insulation get's 6 cords with the Kuuma. Do I think there is SOME variance with the average wood burner? Sure... Do I think it is more efficient than other forced air wood furnaces that I have seen and people will burn less wood, especially if they have some knowledge about wood burning? Definitely...

I know that their some guys on here who have spoken to my dad and met him personally. Does he give you the straight shooter vibe? I would doubt that he's blowing smoke up a**es, because that doesn't make much business sense as you can see from some of the earlier posts on here it can bite you.

 

[Felman]

If the wood wood isn't perfect, what's the best method to burn it?

 

[Fyrebug]

Doesnt need to be perfect... Humidity level of 15% to 20% is about right. That's about 1 year of curing outside well ventilated and top covered with tarp.

You can buy a cheap wood humidity tester at Lowe's for about $30.

 

[CrappieKeith]

I know that their some guys on here who have spoken to my dad and met him personally. Does he give you the straight shooter vibe? I would doubt that he's blowing smoke up a**es, because that doesn't make much business sense as you can see from some of the earlier posts on here it can bite you.

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:

 

[EXCALIBER]

Moisture meter at harbor frieght think less then $15 seems to work fine

 

[lampmfg]

If the wood wood isn't perfect, what's the best method to burn it?

Our furnace does automatically adjust to a certain degree but for optimal efficiency it does require seasoned wood. Hardwood (1 year) and Softwood (6 months). However it still work well if you mix some wet with mostly seasoned wood.

 

[CrappieKeith]

That's great...glad to see that someone finally figured out a way to reverse physics...when you can make green wet wood actually produce some decent btu's you have really found the holy grail.:bang:...wait you can't change physics...my bad.

 

[lampmfg]

That's great...glad to see that someone finally figured out a way to reverse physics...when you can make green wet wood actually produce some decent btu's you have really found the holy grail.:bang:...wait you can't change physics...my bad.

You just can't bite your tongue ever can you? He asked if the wood wasn't perfect what is the best way to burn it.

Since you always seem to know so much more about our woodburning furnaces, the testing process we went through, and why we were able to get our GREAT results than we actually do here is what I propose. By the end of the year send one of your add on furnaces to Interetek for the exact same test that we had done and if you get better efficiency and emissions results than either of the Kuuma models we will pay for the test. Here's the catch if if you don't get better results A) you pay for the test B) we get to use your actual (PDF) results side by side with ours in any type of advertising that we want for as long as we want. :redface:

Otherwise please don't comment on our furnaces when you obviously don't know anything about them!!!

 

[Whitespider]

You just can't bite your tongue ever can you? ...

Biting your tongue is for #####'s... Real men speak their mind.

edit: You've gott'a be kidding me, that word is on the sensor list?

 

[iowa]

Biting your tongue is for #####'s... Real men speak their mind.

edit: You've gott'a be kidding me, that word is on the sensor list?

Ya. Just like at work. We can't say tits.

 

[CrappieKeith]

I do not have to know anything about your furnaces when it comes to wet wood and it's ability to not make btu's.
Someone saying it's ok just shows me how little they know which then brings us to how can we "trust" what your saying...a manufacture no less....

Bite my tongue....I would have responded...it is advisable to stay away from mixing or burning green wood. It would be better to buy some seasoned wood and wait until the green wood has cured. To have lower stack temps means you do not have the umpffff to push that excess water up the flue.It also is impossible to make all of the btus a lb of wood could make being wetter.
Here's a little something I've found to support my position...

In the laboratory it is possible to get a heat value of 8,660 Btu/lb from wood fuel. This "high heat value" is obtained only with perfectly dry wood with 0% moisture content and in an atmosphere of pure oxygen. For laboratory use this is a useful number handy for theoretical problem analysis. But for the practical world it is unrealistic.

When wood is alive and fresh it consists primarily of water, i.e. most of the weight is actually water. After being cut to length and stacked for a year or two the average moisture content generally drops to approximately 20%.

In the combustion process water is evaporated and the temperature is raised to flue gas temperature.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wood-biomass-combustion-heat-d_440.html
Condition of Wood Approximate Combustion Values
btu/lb kJ/kg kcal/kg
Wet 4,000 9,300 2,220
Dry 7,000 16,300 3,890
6.3 lbs dry wood = 1 Boiler Horse Power
11.6 lbs wet wood = 1 Boiler Horse Power
Moisture Content and Usable Energy
Moisture Content and Usable Energy
Moisture Content
% Energy by Volume Unit
% Energy per Weight Unit
%
0 (oven dry) 100 100
20 (air-dry) 97 81
50 (green) 92 62
100 (wet) 85 42
Note that

by volume wet wood has about 85% of the energy of oven-dry wood
by weight wet wood has less than half - 42% - of the energy of oven-dry wood
One weight unit of wood has enough energy to evaporate 6 weight units of water.

 

[cfarms]

Hey Keith....if you want to come over and see a Kuuma VP100 in action, you need to set up a time to come see mine. You will see that it is what Daryl says it is and then some! Does your boss know how bad you are making Yukon-Eagle furnaces look with all the smack you are saying? I didn't think that you were that kind of guy.

 

[CrappieKeith]

Good for you Curt...I'm happy for you...for 14 years your Husky heated your home and I always thought it did a good job for you...I recall the day you said you made your choice and that you were happy to toss that foot pile of other furnace brochures away.
I am sad to see you are not apart of our family anymore. I always had fun when you came around.
I think your a great person to have in our community...Palisade is much richer having you here.

As to talkin smack...just saying what I know to be true about what has been said and yes it appears I have had to defend our good name.
I know full well there are always 2 sides to every coin....and it takes 2 to tangle.
Curt you know me....what has changed? You certainly have always been welcome here to chat and you know I've always bent over backwards to help you in any way possible.

This thread has gone to places I never imagined...hopefully this week we will have the EPA legal opinion as per my conversation from last week with Mr. Dupree....after all that was the initial topic....

 

[ziggo_2]

Is this an open invitation?

Id come up there to see both in action....id rather wait till it gets really cold. What is said over the phones and internet is completely different that seeing things in person. Ive stayed in other peoples house and what they think is warm is a bit chilly to me. Everyone has a different opinion and even when they are in general the same they are still different.

 

[CrappieKeith]

Id come up there to see both in action....id rather wait till it gets really cold. What is said over the phones and internet is completely different that seeing things in person. Ive stayed in other peoples house and what they think is warm is a bit chilly to me. Everyone has a different opinion and even when they are in general the same they are still different.

You bet...

 

[lampmfg]

Id come up there to see both in action....id rather wait till it gets really cold. What is said over the phones and internet is completely different that seeing things in person. Ive stayed in other peoples house and what they think is warm is a bit chilly to me. Everyone has a different opinion and even when they are in general the same they are still different.

You are definitely welcome to come up to the great north to see the Kuuma VaporFire in action, and that goes for anyone. We are located at 512 3rd St South Tower, MN 55790. I recommend taking the old lady along and making it a mini-vacation. We have great hunting, fishing (Lake Vermilion/BWCA), snowmobiling, golfing (3 championship courses within 30 minutes including "The Wilderness", which is consistently ranked in Golf Weeks top 100 courses in the country), and a great casino. I can get anyone a good deal at Fortune Bay Resort Casino (5 minutes from Tower), which is a great resort located right on Lake Vermilion. Shoot me an e-mail if interested.

 

[greendohn]

been around wood heat all my life..been heating my own home(100 yrs + old,,somewhat insulated) with wood for 15 yrs or more. 1st with fire place insert( Ember Hearth.."The Iron PIG").. PRIMITIVE, to say the least !! and HUNGRY for fire wood..I fed that S.O.B. all it wanted and fired it like I was tryin' to melt it down.. it did what it needed, the best it could. NO EPA BULLS@#%T..IT PUT HEAT INTO MY HOME. I was independent of THE MAN !! Back in '07 bought an OWB..NON-EPA certified WOOD BURNIN" HUNGRY MONSTER..and again,,I feed that greedy S.O.B. all it wants. I keep my home, and my family COMFORTABLE, like sitting around in shorts and tee shirts when it's ZERO outside comfortable..Yeah, my unit smokes..smokes like a coal fired steam engine...BURNING EFFICIENCY?? Yeah, it's got that too!! I feed the hungry beast with wood i've cut and seasoned and I EFFICIENTLY TOLD THE THIEVES IN THE PETROLEUM INDUSTRY TO KISS MY A## !!! SMOKIN" MY NEIGHBORS?? Heck, there are 6 wood stoves being used just in my immediate neighborhood!! EPA?? EPA?? THE EPA IS FULL-O-CRAP!! Untill they do something to PROTECT ME ad MINE from the HOG FACTORY, that stinks up my whole town for a week at a time, about once a month, and makes the GREEDY LAND MONGERS CAPTURE ALL THE METHANE GAS THEY ARE RELEASING into the environment,,I'm not gonna worry my stove....