So I gotta ask....

[Westboastfaller]

I grew up in bc little town north of Victoria on the west side of the island so seeing a humbolt is the norm for me while I never had the pleasure of cutting the big west coast wood I understand it's reasoning and dynamics,

You must have been from Port Renfrew? Then I have a question from you.

Was it you who did the pushin'... left the stains up on the cushion...
and the footprints on the dashboard upside down?...
Was it you you stray wood pecker... who got in to my Rebecca?...
Then you better leave this town!

"Oh yes it was I who did the pushin'....left the stains up on the cushion...
and the footprints on the dashboard upside down..
but ever since I got into your Daughter...
I've had trouble passing water...

So I think we are even all around"

"Reasoning & dynamics"
My Grandma could cut green trees
but after 88 her ability to stand on a springboard rapidly diminished.

 

[Skeans]

That's all well and good but what happens when things don't go as planned? What happens when the technology fails?
At what point do we say that the risks involved don't justify the effort and the cost?
I've been around machinery all my life. Machinery fails. I don't care how much research and development has gone into a complicated piece of equipment, there will be a point when some invisible genie unzips his pants and once again pisses all over the pillar of science.
You have a man hanging out there at the end of that tether. He willingly takes the risks into account but if it fails will his loss of life be considered acceptable? And by whom?
Another point is that it's the loggers, not the mill owners or the property owners, who are being required to bear the cost of the equipment. The logger, the person who works on the thinnest of profit margins, is asked to take the greatest risk both financially and from a safety standpoint. This needs to change.

At what point haven't we already been doing the same with many guys on the ground cutting by hand or under a tower?

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[Skeans]

speaking of half a million per machine how long till that machine is paid for anyway? 4-5 years? and then you start seeing any real profit? likely not because the maintenance is going to be outrageous. So then what, drop another cool million on new machines?

Most of these guys pay off a buncher faster then you think, my last harvester was over 400k we had it paid for in under 3 years, the tethering setups are no where as bad as that for price. I've have to be yo-yoed up and down a hill before it's not easy especially when someone is on a cat pulling you up a hill vs this that's an assist less damage. Maintenance I'd bet is no different then a tower or a swing yarder speaking of that what does a new one cost last I heard well north of a million so what's more cost effective in the end? When you talk prices a harvester like I run or what 1270 runs are nutty expensive well the clear cutting equipment is cheap comparatively, a forwarder and harvester of a certain make will 1.2 million for two machines.

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[Gologit]

[QUOTE=" there will be a point when some invisible genie unzips his pants and once again pisses all over the pillar of science"

Priceless wisdom right there[/QUOTE]

I'd like to take credit for that but I can't. I paraphrased Ernest K. Gann in his book Fate is The Hunter. He was talking about mechanical things that go wrong with aircraft, suddenly and for no apparent reason.
It applies to logging, too.

 

[Skeans]

Priceless wisdom right there

I'd like to take credit for that but I can't. I paraphrased Ernest K. Gann in his book Fate is The Hunter. He was talking about mechanical things that go wrong with aircraft, suddenly and for no apparent reason.
It applies to logging, too.[/QUOTE]
I heard that saying from a guy that was in the NTSB that was giving us a presentation about safety and blame where to go from there.

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[Westboastfaller]

At what point haven't we already been doing the same with many guys on the ground cutting by hand or under a tower?

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So how would you get the wood out if say it was a long right- of -way. Still use a skider where possible? What's a forwarder? Hoe chucking or could be the skider also?
I realize it takes time to learn but It seems it's going to be a fair bit slower than cutting flat.

 

[northmanlogging]

Most of these guys pay off a buncher faster then you think, my last harvester was over 400k we had it paid for in under 3 years, the tethering setups are no where as bad as that for price. I've have to be yo-yoed up and down a hill before it's not easy especially when someone is on a cat pulling you up a hill vs this that's an assist less damage. Maintenance I'd bet is no different then a tower or a swing yarder speaking of that what does a new one cost last I heard well north of a million so what's more cost effective in the end? When you talk prices a harvester like I run or what 1270 runs are nutty expensive well the clear cutting equipment is cheap comparatively, a forwarder and harvester of a certain make will 1.2 million for two machines.

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Not to start a pissing match or anything, but whens the last time anyone here's even seen a NEW yarder? Most of whats running around here are Madil, Skagit, or Thunderbird and those are rare, madils and skagits ceased production in the 80's (to be fair Madil is up and running again, and thunderbird bought out skagit) either way, 30+ year old machines still getting the job done. Though the Kollers, and a few other Austrian companies are making a crack at it, they don't seem to be taken seriously out here.

Whether or not you get into tethering your still going to need a yarder or a grapple cat/skidder, on top of the tether, the buncher, processor and loader

That's a whole lotta iron to just go loggin.

Anyway, go get one, seriously, make it work and then crunch the numbers at the end of the year.

 

[Skeans]

So how would you get the wood out if say it was a long right- of -way. Still use a skider where possible? What's a forwarder? Hoe chucking or could be the skider also?
I realize it takes time to learn but It seems it's going to be a fair bit slower than cutting flat.

They were hanging out to almost 2000' clear cutting roughly a 5 acre block a day on the line. Then yarding they were tethering a tigercat bogie skidder then the other company is tethering a 527 and another is dropping gps marks for a radio grapple. A forwarder is a machine typically used for short wood but some have added rear extensions for handling 36' or 40' logs another guy is trying a clambunk forwarder that's tethered off the front instead of the back.

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[Skeans]

Not to start a pissing match or anything, but whens the last time anyone here's even seen a NEW yarder? Most of whats running around here are Madil, Skagit, or Thunderbird and those are rare, madils and skagits ceased production in the 80's (to be fair Madil is up and running again, and thunderbird bought out skagit) either way, 30+ year old machines still getting the job done. Though the Kollers, and a few other Austrian companies are making a crack at it, they don't seem to be taken seriously out here.

Whether or not you get into tethering your still going to need a yarder or a grapple cat/skidder, on top of the tether, the buncher, processor and loader

That's a whole lotta iron to just go loggin.

Anyway, go get one, seriously, make it work and then crunch the numbers at the end of the year.

If I remember right a guy down here bought a brand new Madill two years ago through Modern. I was told that Summit is building a new yarder and that another yarder has been imported for testing by one of the tethering outfits it's a completely hydraulic setup with no guys on the ground it uses GPS pins with a grapple and camera in the cab.

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[northmanlogging]

no guys on a yarder? Thats a new one.

 

[Skeans]

no guys on a yarder? Thats a new one.

Just the guy in the cab this is a grapple setup with a GPS and camera setup in it they're doing anything they can to get guys off the ground they can.

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[northmanlogging]

oh... i was thinking guy lines... kinda of important with a proper yarder... still though remote/robotic is crap anyway you look at it. less and less work for humans every year.

 

[Skeans]

oh... i was thinking guy lines... kinda of important with a proper yarder... still though remote/robotic is crap anyway you look at it. less and less work for humans every year.

The cost of labor and insurance has drove this Oregon isn't far behind BC in some of those aspects.

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[madhatte]

Not to start a pissing match or anything, but whens the last time anyone here's even seen a NEW yarder?

Therre was a new (I think) Madill (? Thunderbird?) sitting in the yard next to Service Saw in Chehalis not too long ago. There's a Thunderbird yoder just north of Grand Mound in a yard too that also looks new. I guess they could be rebuilds, though. I'm no expert. I just try to pay attention to what's going on around me. Oh, and as a market indication maybe, my most recent sale sold yesterday for $641.50/mmbf which is the highest I've seen here in a decade. That particular sale has a mess of timing restrictions and wildlife concerns as well as some terrain, so I was honestly surprised it went for that much.

 

[northmanlogging]

Therre was a new (I think) Madill (? Thunderbird?) sitting in the yard next to Service Saw in Chehalis not too long ago. There's a Thunderbird yoder just north of Grand Mound in a yard too that also looks new. I guess they could be rebuilds, though. I'm no expert. I just try to pay attention to what's going on around me. Oh, and as a market indication maybe, my most recent sale sold yesterday for $641.50/mmbf which is the highest I've seen here in a decade. That particular sale has a mess of timing restrictions and wildlife concerns as well as some terrain, so I was honestly surprised it went for that much.

That seems stupid high? As doug fir isn't going for a whole lot more then that. 750 800 per 1k

But the if the can do it good fer them

 

[GilksTreeFelling]

You must have been from Port Renfrew? Then I have a question from you.

Was it you who did the pushin'... left the stains up on the cushion...
and the footprints on the dashboard upside down?...
Was it you you stray wood pecker... who got in to my Rebecca?...
Then you better leave this town!

"Oh yes it was I who did the pushin'....left the stains up on the cushion...
and the footprints on the dashboard upside down..
but ever since I got into your Daughter...
I've had trouble passing water...

So I think we are even all around"

"Reasoning & dynamics"
My Grandma could cut green trees
but after 88 her ability to stand on a springboard rapidly diminished.

Sooke actually, but I think I remember one or two Rebecca's I may have gone a round or three with

 

[Westboastfaller]

They were hanging out to almost 2000' clear cutting roughly a 5 acre block a day on the line. Then yarding they were tethering a tigercat bogie skidder then the other company is tethering a 527 and another is dropping gps marks for a radio grapple. A forwarder is a machine typically used for short wood but some have added rear extensions for handling 36' or 40' logs another guy is trying a clambunk forwarder that's tethered off the front instead of the back.

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OK that clears a lot up. Thanks
from the examples.
Some of the video's I looked at I just didn't see the speed for two pieces of equipment. I realize they are still getting used to it. One of the advantages I thought at first it had over a Hand Faller was the ability to pile into a skid of sort.
That definitely is not the way to do it at all though. You definitely don't want to slow down 'front end' Not to mention it would be a poor saftey practice... if, you know.. "down came baby, cradle and all".

"5 Acres"
"hanging out to almost 2000ft "
There is lots of variables involved.

Any more specs, facts, particulars for a numbers guy please?
I'm assuming there isn't rock faces, huge cedar stumps, multi slope faces & creeks everywhere.

How about Species, Diversity, Diameter, spacing,planted/consistant,
voids, average run angle, reach, passes, hours, working from both sides down then one side up? Or would that cost more time opening up all the time when you don't have too? Probably eh? The other side to that is in the case of ROB base, you wouldn't have to move until you came back up in cases where it may be more crucial. Is it worth using your max reach? I'm assuming it would eat to much time up?
I think that's it..lol
I know, saw hands have a lot of questions. I guess some of those answers would be a "sometimes thing" You got to know when and when not too.

I suppose steeper narrow fingers at the sides of the block and area's of the bottom that may not line up will have to be hand felled. They should positively have all that engineered before hand will strict consequences
If any tracks trespass. I totally agree with what Northman is getting at. If there is a will there is a way. If there is a small piece at the side with no ROB base or its a big hassle for what it's worth and someone thinks it's going to save them big time and money if they can crib a low side and there home free into the flat corner. I'm sure that won't change the evolvement but it's a rule that needs to come in sooner rather than later because it will come in after a senseless fatality or two. that I'm sure we can all agree on.

 

[madhatte]

That seems stupid high? As doug fir isn't going for a whole lot more then that. 750 800 per 1k

But the if the can do it good fer them

My sentiments exactly. We're even getting a road built and a couple of culverts installed out of the deal. I don't see how it pencils out but I know it must because the bidder is a sharp cookie who's bought a bunch of sales here.

 

[Skeans]

OK that clears a lot up. Thanks
from the examples.
Some of the video's I looked at I just didn't see the speed for two pieces of equipment. I realize they are still getting used to it. One of the advantages I thought at first it had over a Hand Faller was the ability to pile into a skid of sort.
That definitely is not the way to do it at all though. You definitely don't want to slow down 'front end' Not to mention it would be a poor saftey practice... if, you know.. "down came baby, cradle and all".

"5 Acres"
"hanging out to almost 2000ft "
There is lots of variables involved.

Any more specs, facts, particulars for a numbers guy please?
I'm assuming there isn't rock faces, huge cedar stumps, multi slope faces & creeks everywhere.

How about Species, Diversity, Diameter, spacing,planted/consistant,
voids, average run angle, reach, passes, hours, working from both sides down then one side up? Or would that cost more time opening up all the time when you don't have too? Probably eh? The other side to that is in the case of ROB base, you wouldn't have to move until you came back up in cases where it may be more crucial. Is it worth using your max reach? I'm assuming it would eat to much time up?
I think that's it..lol
I know, saw hands have a lot of questions. I guess some of those answers would be a "sometimes thing" You got to know when and when not too.

I suppose steeper narrow fingers at the sides of the block and area's of the bottom that may not line up will have to be hand felled. They should positively have all that engineered before hand will strict consequences
If any tracks trespass. I totally agree with what Northman is getting at. If there is a will there is a way. If there is a small piece at the side with no ROB base or its a big hassle for what it's worth and someone thinks it's going to save them big time and money if they can crib a low side and there home free into the flat corner. I'm sure that won't change the evolvement but it's a rule that needs to come in sooner rather than later because it will come in after a senseless fatality or two. that I'm sure we can all agree on.

Down here they are piling for skidding or yarding for lack for better terms bunching. Old growth stumps here are all the board cut stumps so yes, old growth logs yes, you always when clear cutting cut from one side to roughly 90 degrees it speeds up cycle times, rock faces included down where the Kiwis are they drop these same machines off rock bluffs on these exact setups, multi face or pitch hills are down as well, here's it's alder, cedar, Doug fir, hemlock, maple, spruce. Last I had heard both manufacturers down here had sold over 30 of these each with more orders coming. Max reach will depend on the machine most are running tigercat 855 and 870, the 855 has just shy of 36' of reach and they said it's no issue reaching out with it on 80 percent slopes. Here's a big one for you guys they dropped one off a bluff killed the engine and pulled it up just with the winches this isn't a new thing just new to North America it's been done in Europe and Australia New Zealand for almost 10 years. They were talking about no fallers on company ground by next year for good.

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[Skeans]

My sentiments exactly. We're even getting a road built and a couple of culverts installed out of the deal. I don't see how it pencils out but I know it must because the bidder is a sharp cookie who's bought a bunch of sales here.

I know sometimes on private ground a mill will bid a job a land owner a higher price for the stumpage then what the contractor gets.

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