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Splitter Hydraulics

Discussion in 'Firewood, Heating and Wood Burning Equipment' started by NELOG, Feb 5, 2006.

  1. NELOG

    NELOG ArboristSite Lurker

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    I'm thinking about the hydrualics that I'll need on my splitter. I want to run the Barnes-Haldex 28 GPM two stage pump.

    Anyway, I saw in Northern that they have a two way detent valve that was 3/4" inlet, outlet and working ports, but it is only rated to 25GPM. Is this really a concern? the pump will probably never run at full speed (I believe that they are rated to 4000 RPM) or maybe Northern just low balls the figrue.

    Also, to get the most tonnage, I want to run 3000 psi max. Does anyone know where to get this? The most I see is 2750 psi rating.

    Not related to hydraulics, but in constructing a log splitter, I'd assume that you can do most of the welding with a standard Lincoln AC-225 buzz box, correct? I'm not the best welder, but this is what I have, and didn't know if a MIG set-up is better. Thanks a lot
     
  2. Freakingstang

    Freakingstang Doctor Freakinstein

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    what size engine do you plan on runnnig that 28 GPM? The Northern Valvebank should be fine. Most of the better quality valves have a pressure adjustment on them. You'll have to put a gauge in line and loosen the lock nut and tighten the adj screw in to jack the pressure up. Word of caution. If you are running it a 3K psi, get hose rated for 1.5 times that, or you'll be blowing hoses on big pieces of wood.

    What size cylinder are you planning? 28 gpm and a big bore cylinder with a small engine will make for slow cylce times.
     
  3. NELOG

    NELOG ArboristSite Lurker

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    I hope to be running it off of an 18 hp Honda GX engine. I noticed that Timberwolf uses these on their TW-6 and TW-7 models, but they only hook them to 22 GPM pumps, whereas Northern runs a 28 GPM pump with the 18 hp Honda and a 22GPM pump with a 13hp. As far as the piston, it will be a 5". Thanks
     
  4. DDM

    DDM Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Your buzz box will work fine in short intervals.They only have a 20% duty cycle at about 135 amps. Thats 20% of an hr. Before i bought a mig welder i wundered why my welding started to look like crap after about 20 min then i realized the duty cycle.I could weld a while and let the welder cool a while and it made a huge difference in the weld quality.
     
  5. mdlmjohnson

    mdlmjohnson ArboristSite Lurker

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    Valve for Barnes 28gpm pump

    NELOG: I am just starting a splitter project; also planning on using the Barnes 2 stage 28gpm pump. Surplus Center has a Prince Autocycle valve (RD523MMEE5A1A1) that is rated for 3000psi and 25gpm. Relief is adjustable from 1500-3000psi. It's a bit pricey ($250), but it will cycle automatically through a full out-back cycle.

    I am planning to run off of pto (I have 22pto hp, which should be more than sufficient and don't see any reason to buy another engine to maintain) getting pump up to decent rpm from the 540 at pto with an increasing gearbox and appropriately sized double or triple belt pulleys.

    What size beam and fluid reservoir are you going to use. I'm planning on 8x8 (.51 web) 58#/ft H beam and a 30gal reservoir. Earlier post about allowing a margin on hose capacities sounds very sensible. I was planning on at least 1.5:1 safety factor, but probably 6k psi capacity.

    I am also planning to mount a hydraulic log lift on operator's side and hydraulic wedge adjustment with interchangeable 4way and 6way wedges activated by a double acting cylinder mounted behind and below the vertical wedge beneath the end of the beam, much like the Timberwolf TW-6.

    Good luck.
     
  6. Patrick62

    Patrick62 Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Nice plan

    Go for it. The 28gpm pump is going to take power... lots of it. A 25 gpm valve will be fine, with engine running less than full out. I second question, what size cylinder you going to run? If you go for a 5" (like my critter splitter) then you really will not need 3000 psi. My cyl is rated for 2500, and I have run it at 2250, which gave me a honest 22 tons. It would split anything I could find around here, sideways.

    A regular buzz box will work fine. Use a rod rated for AC, 1/8" is fine. Keep the slag out of the welds.
    MIG welders don't have as much penetration as stick welding.

    Mentioning the tank, I have found out by experience that bigger is better. I have also stated:

    There is no such thing as overbuilding a log splitter. If the materials can be obtained then use the strongest stuff you can find. Look at the 3 way wedge I have on mine. It works well, but with your extra power you can do at least a 4 way split.

    -Pat
     
  7. NELOG

    NELOG ArboristSite Lurker

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    Thanks for all the input. A few new questions, though

    When you say a 1.5 safety factor, do you mean a working safety factor of 1.5 (i.e. rated to working pressure of 4500 PSI or do you mean burst? I think that 3000 PSI hose is actually rated at 9000 to 12000 PSI burst.)

    Also, as far as welding, I have some rudimentary experience on smaller stuff, where the slag build-up wasn't that important (i.e. only one bead, no layering), or where I re-struck the arc with the metal was still molten. I know that the flux coating on the rods condenses on the metal and floats to the surface of the weld. When you grind this off, do you also grind away some of the new bead, to ensure that all of the slag has been removed? As far as making the best bead, is it best to have the beam laying sideways, so that the bead between the wedge and the beam is horizontal and the puddle doesn't run down, or can it be welded as well is the wedge is upright. You could probably lay on more electrode to build up to a vertical bead (i.e. like a completely vertical weld, which is built back on itself as the elctrode moves up) but I'm not sure that you would adequately melt the wedge steel, resulting in a bad weld.

    Do you use 70xx or 60xx rod, and at what setting?

    Has anyone tried welding up a Box wedge like a timberwolf TW-7 (http://www.timberwolfcorp.com/splitters/tw7/tw7.htm) or a cord king 12-way (http://www.cord-master.com/) or a built-rite (http://www.built-rite.com/16way_wedge.html) or a multitek 16- way box wedge (http://www.multitekinc.com/stories/PDFs-images/gish.pdf page 3 of document) ?
    These don't seem to take too much tonnage (although they do have single stage, high flow hydraulics to keep cycle times down) and they appear to deliver a consistent product.

    Any other unique wedge designs? I thought I read about someone whose neighbor made a 28-way split with a big round wedge and lots fo cross members. Thanks a lot
     
  8. mdlmjohnson

    mdlmjohnson ArboristSite Lurker

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    I meant a 1.5:1 safety factor on working pressure. I plan to use hoses with at least 4500# working pressure rating.

    As for the welding, this will probably bring down a rain of criticism, but I am planning to use my Millermatic 251 mig welder. If you use .045" wire, it can weld 1/2" plate in one pass and since the largest plate that I'll be using is 1", and that only with double fillet welds, it should be able to handle it. At any rate, I sure hope so.
     
  9. Patrick62

    Patrick62 Addicted to ArboristSite

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    I have a little experience (and still learnin)

    Concerning MIG welders, and there are some large machines that run larger wire and can really stick huge pieces together. Out of my price rance, like totally. I have a miller 130, it claims to 1/4 but I have at times tacked 1/2 together with it. I would not claim it is the strongest weld. However, it is the easiest arc welding to do! I could have a child laying down nice beads in 4 minutes with the thing!!!

    Stick welding, this is where things get interesting. I use 3 types of rods depending on what I am doing. 6013 is real nice for poor fit up, runs well on AC. Medium penetration. I also run a bunch of 7014, this is a nice easy rod to run. Works better on DC straight polarity, but can run on AC. Makes a slightly stronget weld than the 6013. When I really need to stick something I drag out a box of 7018. Works well on AC, and if I need more power than the diodes (I will get to that) can handle that is how I have to run it. Decent penetration, but can be harder to start. I have also run 6011, but don't generally like it. Deep penetration and fast freeze. Good for vertical. Spatters a bunch.

    I have a buzz box that has 4 diodes cobbled in there that changes the low tap to DC. Works like a charm, but since the diodes are only rated to 110 amps, I have to go AC to get more effective power. Out at my shop I have a Harbor Freight cheapie that has been modified a bit to run on a 6.5KW generator. I can burn a 3/16 rod with it cranked all the way up.

    Bear in mind, I said I still suck welding compared to the real guys out there. Horizontal is going to be the easiest. Grind everything fairly clean, use extra power (it helps, sometimes). tack things so that they stay put. Run a bead on one side, and then run another on the other side. Get a chip hammer (wire brush?) and knock the slag off. Lay your next bead... keep this up until you are satisfied it will not fall off. If it sounds like frying bacon it is about right.

    Vertical welding is more difficult. Not impossible. Reduce your amps. easier to run top down. Stay ahead of the puddle. 7014 will work here... takes bunches of practice, and you still leave holes... Bottom up is more difficult for me to do.

    Overhead? Kinda like horizontal, but the 6011 helps here big time. You get burns in odd places this way (don't ask how I know).

    MIG welding is crazy easy for vertical. Overhead is a piece of cake as well. Plus for quick tack welds I don't even need a mask. Just Point, shoot.

    Bonus, my $0.22 worth!:)
    -pat
     
  10. CaseyForrest

    CaseyForrest I am NOT a tree freak.

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    One other point, if you are welding thick material, instead of pushing your weld across the joint, weld back into your bead, and drag the weld across the joint. You get better penetration with a small welder and you are essentially welding back into the bead you are running.
     
  11. tawilson

    tawilson Addicted to ArboristSite

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    That makes sense. That might be the reasoning behind the old saying push a rod, pull a wire. Did I get that right?
     
  12. CaseyForrest

    CaseyForrest I am NOT a tree freak.

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    Wilson...you can do it either with stick or wire. I was just saying if you have a small welder, thats they way to get good penetration, without having a sh**y looking bead when you are welding thick material.

    Side note....The guy that helped me weld up my splitter has a Hobart Handler 180. The thickest material I used was 3/4 and running my beads that way there was no problem with penetration. We did have about 2 hours total of waiting for the welder to cool to continue.

    Duty Cycles suck.
     
  13. Freakingstang

    Freakingstang Doctor Freakinstein

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    You don't always to to have it set too hot, as mentioned earlier in the post. Not gonna happen on a small machine, but when the metal is superheated, it will crystalize and loose its strength and integrity. The weld will be awesome, but the metal around the weld will be weaker.

    You don't always want to drag with a mig. If you are using flux core wire, it doesn't matter too much. It can still leave impurities in the weld resulting in a weaker bond, if pulled. Pushing is better in theroy, but it will depend on what, where and when I am welding.


    Copper wire and shielding gas, you don't want to pull, as you would be blowing all the containiments into the weld. Pushing, pushes the contaminents continually out in front of the weld, were pulling "pushes" the contaminents into the weld. Make sense?

    Ever wonder why there is sustantuantly less spatter when drug compared to pushing at the same settings? That spatter is caused from and includes the contaminents. when you drag, all the contaminents end up in the weld reducing the amount of spatter and weaking the weld, but still looking like a deep solid weld from the outside appearance.

    I was a certified welder at Rayco MFG. I, unfortunately know all about x-rays and weld structures.


    Steve
     
  14. NELOG

    NELOG ArboristSite Lurker

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    Freakingstang- the best way, then, to ensure a strong weld with an arc welder is by pushing the rod away from the bead?

    Also, has anyone tried welding anything other than a standard two or four way wedge?

    On my current splitter, the beam is just reinforced at the ends, (Iron and Oak) but I read the Northern Manual on making log splitters and it suggests reinforcement along the length of the beam. The Iron and Oak setup seems to work, but what has everyone esle encountered?
     
  15. Andy1234

    Andy1234 ArboristSite Operative

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    Most all, if not nearly all, splitters and heavy equipment now a days are assembled and welded using MIG welding. Only in field work and _very_ heavy industry so you see stick welding.
    The main thing is weld prep. Get it CLEAN! use a file, grinder or belt sander to remove paint, rust and scale and the welds will be much stronger. On thicker stuff, bevel the edge so you can fill the joint with weld.
    www.millerwelds.com is a good place to go for info, they have a library section where you can download or print all sorts of handbooks and manuals. And it is FREE!
    And, yes I am a little biased, I have a Miller 251 and have welded everything from razor blades to 1" thick plates with it. And I LOVE it! Comparing MIG welding to stick welding is like comparing ice cream to brussel sprouts!
    Most local welding equipment distributors have demonstration units set up in their showroom where you can try out different makes and models, by the way.
    Anyway, sorry to get off topic..;)
    Andy1234
     
  16. Freakingstang

    Freakingstang Doctor Freakinstein

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    I won't butter it up... I don't know alot of the "therories" of stick welding. I would presume that would hold true, as that is the way i have always done it. The flux on the coating of the rod acts as a shielding media. So, the same principle should apply. I would try to push as much as you can, but sometimes that is not possible.

    I starting building a splitter a couple years ago and haven't finished it. I need a motor and the hydraulic system. I used 8"x12" I beam and boxed in the sides with 1/4" plate, but I didn't do the edges, I went in about 1 1/2" and left a rail for the slider to ride in. I also uses a piece of 12" channel on the end that would act as a end stop and reinforcement cap for the beam. It might be overkill, but it is stout. Now, I just need to get in gear and finish it up. I started designing a "Y" wedge. I can't remember the measurements, but I believe the plates that made the "Y" were 4" wide, 10" tall and 1/2" thick. I did that thinking anything smaller that 10" in diameter wouldn't hit the top two wedges, and anything bigger would. Never tried it out, but it looked good in my head! :laugh: Maybe I will get some pics the next time I am out at dad's garage.

    Steve
     
  17. mdlmjohnson

    mdlmjohnson ArboristSite Lurker

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    I haven't "experienced" anything yet :D , but I am planning to weld end plates at both ends of the beam and four gusset plates (6-8" wide) on both sides of both ends. If an 8x8 58#/ft beam (.51" web) with all that reinforcement is twisted by the force exerted by a 5" bore cylinder (max of 59K#) I guess it will prove that I am even dumber than I look. :bang:
     
  18. mdlmjohnson

    mdlmjohnson ArboristSite Lurker

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    Miller 251

    I am might glad to hear that, Andy, because I have a Miller 251 and that is what I am going to use to weld the splitter. On the thick plates (such as the cylinder anchor, base for the wedges and ram assembly) I am planning to use .045" wire and 75-25 Arg/Co2 gas. Also planning to grind a bevel for the thicker fillet welds. Does this make sense to you? Any suggestions much appreciated!
     
  19. Andy1234

    Andy1234 ArboristSite Operative

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    Yes, that should work fine. 0.045 is a little thick, but it can be used. I typically use 0.035 or so, but that is because I weld all sorts of thicknesses and don't fell like changing wire rolls every other day.
    Set the voltage to 24-25V, and the feed rate to 275-325, and make sure that the regulator is flowing enough to cover the weld area, and you should be fine.
    Please note that these settings may be "hotter" then what others would use, so you may want to experiment with some scrap plate first.
    Did I mention that the pieces need to be CLEAN?? Also, grind a 45 deg bevel so that you can get some decent penetration. Don't skip the fitting, good welds are 90% prep and 10% skill, in my opinion. Spending 10 minutes prepping the work beats spending an hour grinding out a bad weld anyday in my book. You don't want to know how I know this:laugh: .
    Depending on the placement of the weld, you may want to get a tapered nozzle, your dealer should have them. If they don't have the Miller part, get a Tweco.
    Keep the nozzle clean, dip it in vaseline before starting, it will keep the splatter from sticking. And wear gloves! That stuff gets hot!:angry2:
    Good Luck, FWIW.
    Amdy1234
     
  20. mdlmjohnson

    mdlmjohnson ArboristSite Lurker

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    Many thanks. I'll keep you posted.
     

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