Splitter project question... 2 stage or 1 stage.

[FlyingDutchman]

I have a 2 John Deere loader cylinder log splitter my dad built 30 years ago. Engine blew up in 1993. We finally got it back from the fella that blew it up. It has a very long stroke, no detent return, marginal cycle times. Thankshe old engine barely did the job (which kilt it constantly and probably murdered it)

It has a large single stage Hydreco pump est 20 gpm and a 7hp Kohler. I bought a worn out 2000 series Cub Cadet tractor and yanked the single cylinder Kohler Command 16 hp engine out along with the fuel system, harness and choke/throttle cables. It may be only 13 useable hp according to the dealership I got it from but says 16hp all over it. The motor does not mate to the old pump arrangement and coupling and we need to cut it off and reweld it.

I just came across a 16gpm 2 stage Speeco hydraulic pump for cheap (have not purchased yet). I should be able to go to the farm store, buy a pump bracket and bolt this pump on no problem. Keeping the Hydreco pump will be more work for dad to reweld.

I have an idea to two stage the cylinders to make cycle times faster. Prince hydraulics sells an RD-1000 sequence valve. That, a line check valve, a few extra hoses, and I have one cylinder that receives all the flow and the other has both ends open to tank, and then under load both cylinders receive flow to the head end. It will work much like a 2 stage pump. So combine that with a 2 stage pump and you have 3 potential stages.

What I'm afraid of: I'll be forced to go 3 stage if I move to the Speeco pump to get good cycle times as the old single stage Hydreco pump which likely flows more. If I just use the old pump and do the 2 stage cylinders, it will cost less. But in general, this year we just need to split some wood. Not having to spend a weekend changing and aligning and welding a pump bracket and chain coupling seems to be worth the price.

The Hydreco pump does not use a standard size pump bracket, it's somewhere between SAE A and SAE B mounting pattern with a deep pilot bore and long shaft that will force me to space it out with an adapter from any standard pump bracket. Also I have no idea what the Hydreco pump actually flows, never got around to emailing the company. I think it could work just fine if we reweld the bracket.

Just wanted to see if you all thought a 16gpm trying to fill 2 3" cylinders was going to work somewhat ideally or was going to be another trade off to an already crusty heap of junk.

Sorry for the long post

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

What size are the cylinders?

 

[FlyingDutchman]

They are around 3", which is noteably smaller than a 6" and have not done the math but maybe smaller than a 5".

It's probably a dumb question. Surplus center says you need to have a 8hp motor minimal for a 16 gpm pump, I've got double that.

I can just picture it now, the 2 stage pump kicking in on a giant, 28" crotch log and it going down into slow time and it chugging forever and dad just staring at me all like "you and your newfangled bullsh*t."

The old motor/pump did chew though absolutely anything you'd put on there as long as you let the motor catch up. We've got double the horsepower now.

 

[FlyingDutchman]

These are all the pictures I have of the project right now. It's very rusted, bunch of the hoses are bad. All the hoses are 1/2 inch so I don't know if that affects the pump size cap.

Uploader working a lot better at the moment!!!

Sorry for the double post.

 

[triptester]

The way the cylinders are stacked both require equal amounts of fluid to extend and retract so they cannot be sequenced. Normally to produce the common 3000 psi of a log splitter , 2hp per gallon of flow is required. A 14 hp engine with a single stage will handle about 7 gpm at max pressure. A 2-stage pump with the same engine could handle 28 gpm pump.
If you take the bore, stroke, and rod measurements the speed and tonnage per cylinder can be determined using half the pump capacity.
Here are some calculators that will help.
http://www.baumhydraulics.com/calculators/cyl_calc.htm
http://www.baumhydraulics.com/calculators/cyl_speed.htm

 

[homemade]

I’d get a 22 or 28 gpm two stage pump. You’ll get the benefits of twostage and the speed will out weigh the slow down when it downshifts.

Depending on the valve you have, you can add a dentent assembly to it. My “cross” brand valve actually has a detent in the extent position. $35 for a new spool detent sleeve.

If you can find some info on the cylinders, I know John Deere back in the day, only ran 1500psi on there tractor hydraulic systems. And the old pump might have only been producing 1500psi. With the new pump, your able to pump up to 3000psi. I’d recommend end putting a gauge on the output side of the pump and see what psi’s your getting. You can even see what pressure your pump shifts at and when the relief opens.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dave_dj1]

Well the thing is with a single stage pump it takes a lot of power IE that's why it would stall your little motor. A two stage pump runs in high speed low pressure until a pre set pressure builds then it kicks down into low speed high pressure until which time the force drops and it goes back into high speed low pressure which btw is most of the time. I have a 11 HP predator motor on my splitter and a 22 gpm two stage pump, it only drops to the second stage for a second or two, once the wood pops open it goes right back to high speed. To be clear, speed probably isn't the correct term, flow would be better suited here I think but you get the idea.
Of course all the flow in the world isn't going to overcome small hoses, fittings and valves and ports It's a compromise of sorts.

 

[FlyingDutchman]

Of course, one of the main reasons this is happening is we are fairly broke and can really use a splitter. So buying a $400 28gpm 2 stg pump is a bit too rich. The cylinders and the valve leak and yeah.... It's a real nice. I already spent 200 on the new motor.

Triptester, I do have a method I know will work for mechanically linked cylinders for two staging the cylinders. I have a schematic on the work computer. Schematically it looks similar to a two stage pump... However, it will only increase the cycle time to load. Won't necessarily reduce strain on the engine when the pump is under pressure. I think it could work okay if my single stage pump flowed around the edge of what my motor can handle. Should only cost $200 in parts with the valve to do, but it's probably a future project... Just nice to have. Will email Hydreco and see if I can get a build sheet maybe. On the current pump.

Homemade, good point on the cylinders. I'll investigate that. They leak now a fair deal. We tried it on an SC case tractor with 1000psi relief and it barely damaged the surface of the log. The old motor never was able to reach relief press on the control valve. I think they have been run way past 1500psi.

I understand that about the 2 stage. I'm wondering about the flow. Probably need to upgrade to 3/4" on the inlet and outlet of the control valve. Will investigate.

Turned down the 16gpm. Will investigate the pump I have, the cylinders, run equations get back.

 

[dave_dj1]

Try running the pump you have off the tractor PTO, the tractor will have enough power to run it.
this pump should work for you nicely
https://www.surpluscenter.com/Brand...tage-Hydraulic-Pump-S21707-5185-9-7972-16.axd

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

1/2" hose is good for about 16 gpm pressure, 6 gpm return, 2.5gpm suction.

28gpm needs .625" pressure, 1" return and 1.625" suction.

Too small of hose causes heat and wear, more fuel usage, and slower functions.

I recently redid many hoses on my processor. No idea what they used to figure hose size, but it was WAY wrong.

I was able to get the cycle from about 7.5secs to 4-4.5, dropped oil temp 40* and I get 4 hrs more on a tank of fuel (15 gal)

 

[muddstopper]

Let e see if I am reading this right. You want to use 2 cyl. connected with sequence valve to iprove speed and power using a single stage pump. But you are considering buying a 2stage pump and make more speed and power. You have a good 16hp engine and 2-3in bore cyl. I suppose all this has been previously a working wood splitter but the current pump engine combo, even when working, wasnt satisfactory.

Seems like a waste to do what you are proposing. The cost of the sequence valve isnt the only cost to making your 2 cyls work as you are proposeing. You also have the additional cost of buying the plumbing. While just using one cyl your other cyl is being dragged in and out and having to suck and return oil to the tank, until the sequence valve is activated and staarts supplying oil to the other cyl. if the current splitter setup is still in tack, simply swapping in a 2 stage pump with your new engine will be a better solution. $400 for a new pump is ridiculous, you really need to shop around. You can probably buy a 22gpm 2stage pump for what you will spend for the sequence valve and additional plumbing needed. I am pretty sure the two stage pump will produce more splitting force than you current single stage pump simply because it will allow you to produce more hyd pressure. As for actual tonnage, your 2-3in cyl are equal to about a single 4.5in bore cyl.

here is a 22gp two stage pump for about half of your $400 price tag. http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydrau...-Pumps/22-GPM-Dynamic-2-Stage-Pump-9-7970.axd and a 28gp for about the same price. http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydrau...-Pumps/28-GPM-Dynamic-2-Stage-Pump-9-7971.axd

 

[FlyingDutchman]

I've been reading a lot. Thanks for the experienced perspective everyone.

I'm not sure what to think. Seems like this splitter is a waste of time based on the fact that (when I started working on it) nearly every component needs to be repaired or replaced except the beam.

The Cylinders are cast with raised lettering 8228-C which does NOT hit on the JDParts database anywhere. I'm assuming it was on an aftermarket loader frame at this point but will dig through some old cylinder CTM's. Replacing these cyls is going to HURT... http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydrau...linder-Lion-50LH30-200-3000-PSI-9-8265-30.axd


The calculators came out with these numbers. Pretty fearsome numbers considering most of the nicer splitters only have a 10 second cycle time (but much larger cylinders.) My cylinders are equivalent to a 4.25" bore and a 1.75" Rod.

22gpm: Extend Time= 5 sec. Retract Time= 4.2 sec. Cycle Time= 9.2 sec.
28gpm: Extend Time= 3.9 sec. Retract Time= 3.3 sec. Cycle Time= 7.199999999999999 sec.

At 3K psi, my 2 cylinders are only good for 21 tons of force.

With a 5" cylinder its good for 29.5 tons of force.

16hp also seems to be on the edge of what can 28 gpm pump. My cylinders are small so maybe it will be able to run it up 3000 psi with good cycle times. Some sources seem to be iffy about the 16hp running a 28gpm and indicate decreased pressure. Because I'm not sure of the running condition of the motor yet (at 946 hours on the clock) I'm not sure whether to sink into a 28gpm and hope or play it safe with a 22gpm, unless you guys think it will be fine?

I'm thinking about the 22 gpm MTE pump from surplus center. MTE is an american company at least. http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydrau...-S304153751-Hydraulic-2-Stage-Pump-9-8480.axd

 

[rancher2]

FlyingDutchman
Your finding out fixing hyd on splitters aren't a cheap or easy thing. Unless you are attached to the splitter because Dad built it and trust me I have spent a lot of money on tractors that family had bought new back in the day. If you aren't doing wood on a large scale you can shop around and buy one running and ready to go for a lot less than it will take to get that one going again. This summer I pickup a old uhaul splitter that had been stored inside at a moving sale for $300.00 it had a fairly new carb on the engine and ran good and split wood nice. I used it this summer cleaned it up and serviced it and sold it over the weekend for $700 and the guy thought he got a deal both of use was happy.

 

[blades]

fully 80% of purchased splitters are 20 ton or less as rated by mfg. ( which mostly means 15T) most of them are running 5-6hp motors with a 11gpm pump. they say 1/2" lines but that is a misnomer as most have a metallic line that at best is only 3/8" ID and most all the fittings are restricted to 3/8" internally as well. Simply put speed is how fast you can fill and empty cylinders. working alone the avg store bought unit is fast enough. The ports on your cylinders are likely for 1/2" fittings, using 1/2" HI Flow fittings gets rid of that impediment. 1/2" line cheaper than 3/4- 1/2" ports on cylinder not much point in the lines being 3/4" adds to cost using reducers, Standard log splitter valve $79-99. This has the kick off detent on retraction. You can have the cylinders resealed/rebuilt could cost as much as new. A good hydro repair shop can likely identify what will be needed so it is possible for a diy saving the labor charge. Northern Tool has pre-made hoses at decent prices, last time I bought some as well as the HI Flow fittings. Amazon has log spliter pumps as well as valves and complete kits, 2 stage pump only starting at apx $99.- likely all imports- but hey even US Brand name units are made somewhere else to mfg specs. Just some thoughts.

 

[dave_dj1]

My splitter only calcs out to about 14 tons of force and believe me i have split some monster wood with it, you just have to learn how to read the wood. I run a 4 way a lot of the time and a 6 way for straight grained wood. I have yet to encounter a piece I cannot split, I may have to work my way around the edges of it but I get it done. Don't buy in to the hype of 30 ton, blah blah blah.... If I were to only have a 6 way and split everything then I would want more tonnage but I don't so there's that.

 

[blades]

more tonnage + non splitable twisted Knarly SOB of a round mostly leads to something else breaking or bending except the round and a lot of us here have that T-shirt. ( even if they do not admit to it)

 

[FlyingDutchman]

I can read wood fairly well, I've split by hand for 20 years with Dad. We like longer pieces (30") for our OWB's. Thanks to everyone for the awesome input to help me come to some conclusions and run the calcs!!!

Got a quote from the hydraulic shop. It was high... $400 for what I assume will be a Haldex pump, 325 for a reservoir, 120 for a pump mount with a 2 week lead time.

The shop suggested a 25 gallon reservoir. Currently the reservoir is a 4.7 gallon propane tank held on with farmer wire. This old setup didn't cause any problems, but is way way less than ideal per engineering standards after a little research. I would feel really bad about spending money on a pump without the right reservoir, inlet screen, and bypass return filter etc to make it work right and last. The pile of old filter heads I have, none of them are bypass...

I'm thinking that the best way to go is to just fix the old pump up on a raised bracket, get the new motor running, and run it till something from the old splitter setup fails. It could be 5 minutes, and it could be 5 years. Just about everything about this splitter is less than ideal, it needs a major rework. We split enough wood to make it worth fabricating. Should be a fun late winter project once we get the stockpiles replienished.

The Hydreco pump is a 1506C20C1. Google provided a manual of a 1500K model pump. Assuming my pump is also the same output, my 16 hp motor is only good for around 2500 psi with that pump, which makes it a 17-18 ton splitter with the following cycle times: Extend Time= 10.3 sec. Retract Time= 8.6 sec. Cycle Time= 18.9 sec. All of that is well within the flow spec of a 1/2" crappy prefab hose from the farm store...

 

[blades]

I had some Pictures of the internal differences between different hydro fittings - hi-flow vs others , can't find them now - likely on a previous drive that went south. if your hose is 5/8-3/4 od then it is likely 1/2 id which leaves the restriction to the fittings at the valve and cylinder.

 

[FlyingDutchman]

Shot Hydreco a message online to get info. They responded that the C-series has less flow 10.0 gpm at 3600 rpm, .6 less than the new K series pump.

The C-series is also only rated for 2000 psi, and will blow the shaft seal out if run over pressure. Relegates to only 14 tons of usable pressure, and need to get a gauge on it and check the relief of the control valve which may be too high.

Extend Time= 11.1 sec. Retract Time= 9.1 sec. Cycle Time= 20.2 sec. lol...

 

[FlyingDutchman]

We are commencing with the old single stage pump. Too many old components. With some foresight into what the "final" setup will look like...

Despite better advice not to, I'm going to plan on the 2 stage cylinders but not do it until I have proof this thing is going to work/what leaks/ breaks. May never get around to it. But I might. So a few reservoir mods:

While the tank is out and drained I'm adding a 3/4" return bung to the tank, which will become the control valve return, but it will be plugged for now. The 1/2" control valve return bung will become the cylinder rod end to tank, but I'm keeping that for return. I'm also adding a 3/8" return bung for the sequence valve drain. Also plugged for now.

The control valve return will still remain 1/2" for the test but will get a 25 micron in line filter with 3/4" ports. Needed reducer 1/2" bushings to go in for the temporary setup, eventually will be 3/4.


Next, i bought a jaw type coupling. This should work with the new pump if we move to that, and it will make alignment easier. The sprockets on the chain coupling don't allow for a straight edge against them, and I feel like that will be a frustration.

I bought a # 505 SAE woodruff key for the Hydreco pump shaft. It's designed to have a nut threaded on, but also has the woodruff key which makes it work with a standard size 5/8 coupling. The old woodruff key was rusting away completely probably would have just spun out if used.

The suction hose between the tank and pump will be shortened as the motor is bigger and taller. The original hose wasn't pretty felt like radiator hose, so I got some real return clamps and real return hose (hardest part to find actually). I bought enough where, when switching to a 2 stage pump, the remainder should do that job.

Lastly I got a pressure gauge and a 1/2" to 1/4" pipe bushing to install on the control valve to watch the pressure to see if we have potential to blow up the pump before it hits relief. If too high I can de-shim the relief valve hopefully

Hopefully there's time to work on it!