SRT rope tie-off

[Spokerider]

Hello,
Just wanna start by saying "what a great site"! I'm a new climber [ been up a few firs with spurs to limb ] and have been learning TONS from reading other's posts.

I have just ordered a bunch of SRT equipment [ grigri, ascender, prusik rope, micro pulley, foot sling, 11mm rope, etc ] and hope to put it to use for recreational climbing, limbing trees on my property and for others such as family and friends.

I have a question about the *best* method of securing the end of the climbing line at ground level......either to the tree I'll be climbing or a near by tree.

Do you use a second line to make 3 wraps of the base with a double fig 8 knot. Then, to that loop just made, add 'biner with a munter hitch, slip knot backed up by an overhand knot from the climbing line?

Saw one of the youtube vids of it being done this way....

Thoughts?


Oh yeah, the book, Tree Climbers Companion is in the mail!

 

[TheLorax]

Heya spokerider. fist things first. please dont climb trees with spurs, unless of course you are removing it. needlessly spurring trees is not good for their health. if you think you are doing friends/family a favour by punching holes in the trunk of their tree, think again. that said, the tie-off method you outlined sounds fine. theres alot of good reading out there, ******** also has alot of helpfull info. keep learning and stay safe.

 

[SINGLE-JACK]

Just in case you don't already have it:

 

[cookiecutter]

What you are describing is called a munter/mule. Mule being the tie off knot and munter as a belay hitch. Keep in mind, I've used this set up and it works well, but only if you have enough rope. This set up is used as an extra safety measure, in case someone on rope has a problem you simply release the mule and lower with the munter. If you do not have enough rope to lower the person on rope than the system is somewhat pointless. There are other methods to tying off the rope that don't require a biner thus saving gear.

Besides the system you have described all my SRT climbs have been done by use of a limb cinch, so other more experienced climbers can help you with other techniques.

Keep in mind, I myself am pretty new to the sport.

 

[Spokerider]

Heya spokerider. fist things first. please dont climb trees with spurs, unless of course you are removing it. needlessly spurring trees is not good for their health. if you think you are doing friends/family a favour by punching holes in the trunk of their tree, think again. that said, the tie-off method you outlined sounds fine. theres alot of good reading out there, ******** also has alot of helpfull info. keep learning and stay safe.

Hence my desire to climb spurless.......
Thanks for the ******** tip. Looks like another great site.

Cookie; thanks for the explanation, it's all good to know!

Single; yup, the books in the mail. Many, many have suggested it, so it must be a good'un.

 

[JFrazier]

Spokerider,
First off, I second the no spurs cry. Spur holes are an open wound to a tree.

Secondly, if you're climbing with a partner on the ground, which is a very safe thing to do, the munter mule is a decent rescue option if you have at least 3 times the length from the ground to the TIP in rope. I like some sort of friction hitch backup with a munter or any non-autobraking device better than without. You'd hate to seriously injure yourself only to have your ground guy lose his grip in a nervous rescue and drop your injured body 50 feet.

Lastly, I climb solo way back in the woods often. I use mostly SRT and a single rope since I hike in a lot, so I need to be able to advance my TIP from the TIP. In that case I use a type of running loop leaving the tag end long enough to reach from wherever I need to access it. I tie a butterfly at about the center of the rope and attach an oval screwlink to it. Then an end goes up and over the first TIP and through the screwlink and it gets cinched up to the branch. This way I can climb as high as half the length of my rope and get it back from the ground. Advancing the TIP consists of tying into the first TIP or near it with my lanyard or daisychain and unhooking the working end of the rope from the screwlink and then immediately attaching the butterfly knot loop to my harness so that I don't drop my one rope out of the tree. (I could inch my way down with my lanyard and trunk girthed slings if I had to, but it wouldn't be fun.) Then, "simply" advance the climbing line and run it into the screwlink and cinch it on the next branch. Last note: Obviously, you can climb much higher than twice the height of your climbing rope. You'd just have to down climb to a TIP less than that for your final descent out of the tree.

THIS IS WAY TOO LONG!!! SORRY!!! If you did manage to get to this point, thanks for tuning in. Until next time...

Happy New Year,

Josh Frazier USMC

 

[Spokerider]

Josh,
Thanks for the explanation, it helps.

Being new to climbing in general and SRT, I have a few more questions please........

What does TIP stand for, other than, tying onto a branch with the upper end of the rope.

Now, for climbing SRT, I know you either have to use a ground anchor, or isolate a branch to tie off to with a running bowline or similar. If you choose the running bowline, how do you retreive the line at the end of the climb [ if it's still cinched on the branch you just climbed to, with the running bowline knot ]?

I understand the reason for wanting to move the rope from TIP to TIP while in the canopy, and I know the alpine butterfly knot, I know what an ova screwlink is.......just having a hard time visuallizing how you're going to get the rope back from the ground at the end of the climb.

Also, what SRT equipment do you climb with?

I just received some of mine in the mail......more from a different place coming.....

Have: 200' tachyon
4 tri lock biners
15' Ice tail for prusiks
20' Samson Tech prusik cord
CMI micro pulley
1" tube webbing x 30'
Bigshot, throw line, weights
Buckingham Master II climbing harness [ with shoulder harness ]
3/4" wire core flipline
Buckingham spurs


Waiting on: Petzl RAD system http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=27920&catID=355

 

[moss]

TIP is often used to describe what the rope is over even if the rope isn't tied to the branch. For instance it can be over the branch or even better over multiple branches and tied off at the ground on the trunk or on another tree.

If you cinch the TIP with a Running Bowline (cinched) be sure to back your Bowline with a Yosemite Tie-Off (see Jepson's Tree Climber's Companion).

To retrieve a cinched rope tie a throwline to the rope just above the Bowline. If you tie it to the bight of the you can sometimes have trouble releasing the cinch.

Your Tachyon is going to be bouncy for SRT climbing but it will work. The good news is Tachyon is usable for DRT or SRT.

Before you climb SRT practice switchover to rappel low to the ground. you'd be surprised how many climbers climb up high and then realize they don't exactly know how to make the switchover.

200 ft. feet of Tachyon is going to be a lot of rope to manage when you're climbing DRT.

Speaking of which I'd recommend working on your DRT technique as well, climbing on a hitch allows you to switch from ascent to descent without reconfiguring you system. Look at Jepson's again for some info on DRT.

Climb smart and safe.
-moss

 

[RacerX]

Just keep in mind that if you use the ground anchor method to tie off you will have a weight doubling effect on the limb that the rope is over. For a climber who weighs 200#'s all loaded with gear the limb may "see" 400#'s of load. Something to remember if your setting your line from the ground.

 

[dantiff2]

Moss.

The good news is Tachyon is usable for DRT or SRT.

Are there some ropes not suitable for both SRT/DRT? And why?

Dan

 

[Spokerider]

Thanks for all tips guys.......invaluable info to a newbie!

I'm going to try that running bowline release with throwline on a lower limb before I get out the Bigshot.

RacerX, Yup. I'm aware of the doubling effect on an SRT limb TIP. For me, that equates to about #480 for my fat @ss and saw / gear.

 

[JFrazier]

Do read the "Tree Climber's Companion." It is an excellent resource to new climbers for sure. I figured my earlier post was a little wordy and confusing. I'll try sending you a few drawings that may explain a little if I get the chance when I get home from work.

SRT is outstanding and can be applied to all types of climbing scenarios. However, I would really recommend that you spend lots of time climbing DRT and getting comfortable with it and knot tying. To me, it's like getting down the basics before branching out, no pun intended. With those skills you could essentially be dropped off by helicopter into the top of almost any tree out there with nothing but a 200' rope and no gear or harness and get down quite safely.

Have fun, take pictures,

Josh Frazier USMC

As far as equipment, it varies a lot. Typically:

NT Tengu harness
150' NeoPro
Petzl Stop (most people use a GriGri, Eddy, I'D, etc...)
Petzl Shunt
couple of Petzl Attache Carabiners
Petzl William Carabiner
Petzl OK carabiner for my...
Petzl Fixe pulley
homemade daisy chain (1" tubular webbing)
homemade footloop (same webbing, I have a couple hundred feet!)
various webbing slings
25' lanyard
2 or 3 oval screwlinks
pear screwlink or delta on harness
saw
and a sweet compact, lightweight parachute hammock for impromptu naps and fun
I probably missed an item or few, my brain is fried from work

 

[moss]

Some arborist ropes may have a bit too much stretch for srt but would be fine for drt. All arborist ropes should work fine but this stretch factor makes some perfer one over another. I use NE HiVee saftey blue for both srt and drt.

You have to work a little harder to make a static kernmantle rope work for DRT. It can't be used to tie a Blake's Hitch into itself for example, it's not supple enough. You can use a split tail to make a static kernmantle usable for DRT but it will be a very hard ride since you're taking a very low stretch rope and doubling it further reducing stretch. The pure statics are great for SRT because low stretch means you get what you put into it for a long ascent as opposed to a more stretchy semi-static arborist rope which will absorb some of your energy during SRT ascent. The arb semi-statics have a range of stretch, Tachyon and Fly are a little on the bouncy side, Poison Ivy is firmer but still can be tied into itself in a Blake's Hitch system. It's probably the best dual purpose SRT/DRT rope. Tachyon is my favorite rope and I use it DRT or SRT depending on the situation. If I know I'm going to be climbing a tall conifer with a long initial ascent I will use a static rope for SRT.
-moss

 

[moss]

In the early nineties I was climbing on half inch KMIII with a split tail prusik loop of 3/8 KMIII girth hitched into a climbing snap. The rope end was Yosemite bowlined on another climbing snap. The static nature of the KMIII was no problem...in fact I enjoyed it. It is a heavy rope though but quite pretty. This is before HiVee came along.

Wow! 1/2" KMIII for DRT, that is going to be heavy. Rock solid though.

Maybe that's the real issue of using a static DRT, per diameter it's going to be heavier than any arb semi-static. A static like Sterling HTP 10mm is going to be light enough per foot to compare to one of the semi-static 11mm ropes but a lot of climbers aren't going to like trying to grip such a skinny rope DRT.
-moss

 

[Spokerider]

Do read the "Tree Climber's Companion." It is an excellent resource to new climbers for sure.

I have that book coming in the mail. Looking forward to reading it.
Can you reccomend a good climbing DVD for a newbie as well? I see that there are a few available..... Looking to cover recreational tree climbing, and light duty arborist-type work.

I've been doing some DRT climbing, trying various hitches etc in the trees in my yard. Not climbing high, just enough to get the feel for things and the knots that I have been trying. The Blakes hitch worked well, but the 4-loop prusik tied into a footloop [ with a flemish blend knot ] from Samson Tech cord was a real DRAG to use. It required manipulating / loosening in order to advance it up the rope after each step. Labour intensive and slow....... Think I may try a foot Pantin or CMI foot ascender.

Haven't tried hip-thrusting, or footlocking yet. I recall from rope climbing in my school years [ yes, that was a long time ago ] that footlocking and climbing hand-over-hand was difficult then, so I'm pretty sure it ain't going to be easier now, lol.

Also been tying and trying the Knut hitch with micro pulley to slack tend. Tried climbing on it once so far. Going up it worked well [ except for struggling with the foot-loop prusik again ] but trying to release the hitch to decend was fun......not! It had tightened right up and required unweighting the hitch [ screwing around with the foot-loop prusik again ] to get it loose enough to allow decent......even then it was seizing up again and again.
I had tied it with Ice Tail, with nice short tails tight to the biner. As you can see......I'm a newbie!!

Might give the "moss" XT hitch a go.......

Oh and moss, I sure enjoy your youtube vids. Thanks!

 

[moss]

The Blakes hitch worked well, but the 4-loop prusik tied into a footloop [ with a flemish blend knot ] from Samson Tech cord was a real DRAG to use. It required manipulating / loosening in order to advance it up the rope after each step. Labour intensive and slow....... Think I may try a foot Pantin or CMI foot ascender.

Something to consider is try using a handled ascender with footloops on it for foot power. It's real smooth and works great with a Blake's. And you'll have the ascender available for messing around with SRT if you decide to try it out.

I think Mark Chisolm invented the XT Hitch but I could be very wrong about that.

Glad the vids are helpful,
-moss

 

[JFrazier]

hitches

I've played around with the XT with a 3/8" prussick on SRT and like it okay. It's better than a VT in my opinion. I've always been a big fan of the schwabish too. Seems to break relatively easy going up. Not as easy as an XT or VT, but it's lower maintenance while climbing. Keep in mind that different cords and cord diameters as well will act differently with the same knot on the same line. One more friction knot that I used to use to attach a footloop to before I got my first mechanical ascender was a carabiner autoblock with a 1" tubular webbing sling a little over a foot long. I just clipped my footloop into the carabiner. It takes 6 wraps to hold on 11mm rope.

 

[Spokerider]

Good tip for using a handled ascender with a footloop, moss. When it arrives in the mail, I'll give it a try.

JFrazier; I was wondering if another hitch would suffice for the footloop instead of the prusik. I'll give the autoblock knot with a biner a try and see if it works better for me. Thanks.

 

[TreeWhitelock]

Tying the rope off to some sort of belay device is good in case somethin should happen on the way up someone on the ground can get you down. A gri-gri or a port a wrap anchored with a loopie sling is pretty nice.

 

[the dude]

As long as the pull is fairly vertical wouldn't a timber hitch suffice? I use it but I do like alot of wraps. Of course retrieval from above is not gonna happen, but then again somebody is always below me.