Stihl ms500i with a .404 chain?

[North by Northwest]

The 500i is no better in any way than a Dolmar 7900, which was designed more than 20 years ago.

Yeah , just something different , much like electronic epa driven computerized Husky & Stihl saws . Magnesium pistons on the newest Stihl , much like the trend from points to electronic ignition . Time will tell until then , my new 7910 XD rules the saw shelf here !

 

[North by Northwest]

And 661 is 3 lbs heavier than the 500

When your felling & bucking firewood weight is not always a liability , as in professional logging and limbing requirements it's all in your application !

 

[rwoods]

I've cut professionally almost all my adult life and not everything makes so much sense.
.... So what is really going on here?
... .

I have no verifiable answers, however, in my limited experience I can’t discern any longevity advantage of square.404 over square 3/8, Semi chisel maybe - or maybe just the influence of the repeated assertions. Less binds - a fact though I don’t know why. Easier insertion of wedges - also a fact but I doubt a pro would actually need the extra space very often.

Ron

 

[North by Northwest]

I have no verifiable answers, however, in my limited experience I can’t discern any longevity advantage of square.404 over square 3/8, Semi chisel maybe - or maybe just the influence of the repeated assertions. Less binds - a fact though I don’t know why. Easier insertion of wedges - also a fact but I doubt a pro would actually need the extra space very often.

Ron

I have used .325 , .375 & .404 . Back in the day (60' S era.) .404 was a common havester size chain normally in .063 or .083 gauge . Today .050 or .058 is more prevalent . The benefits of .404 is that of increased overall tooth surface for cutting and removing chips from the kerf area along with additional strength and reduction within stretch and better retention of sharpness due to less aggressive grind profiles & quicker cutting rates in larger wood . The downside today is that of added weight , potential lower rpm & rate of cut within smaller wood & smaller hp saws and additional cost due to limited supply . Just my opinion

 

[user 122190]

Montana, it’s been decided. You can’t run .404. The participants in this thread know what’s best.The decision is final.
So we’ll never really know.

I've decided to get a lap dance from a very special lady with my stimulus check, so yeah we'll never know.

 

[MS500i R]

I've decided to get a lap dance from a very special lady with my stimulus check, so yeah we'll never know.

Well ****.
Lap dances last a song or two. ******** about chainsaws can stretch decades.

Obviously the correct answer is do both. Just don’t do the first @Freds.

 

[KASH]

Back in the late sixties and early seventies here in Northwestern Ontario when pulp was at its peak a lot of the fallers used the Stihl 08s this 56cc saw was offered with 8 pin 3/8s or 7 pin 404. The cutters who used 404 were mainly older fellows who started out young with big saws and big chains back then they said it cut a little faster stayed sharper longer and lasted longer.
I cannot comment as all the 08S I have collected the few with 404 I changed to 3/8.
I think the reason that 404 fell out of favor was the saws were becoming smaller and 3/8 was becoming the standard and allowed changing between different saws in different sizes.I do not know exactly when 325 cams on the market but my 67 Pioneer Holiday 58cc came with 404 and my 70 Stihl 030 44cc with 3/8.
This subject has raised my curiosity and I am going to try the 08S with 404 and 3/8 just as kind of personal satisfaction because I have thought about this many times over the years but always took the easy way out 3/8s.
Kash

 

[North by Northwest]

Back in the late sixties and early seventies here in Northwestern Ontario when pulp was at its peak a lot of the fallers used the Stihl 08s this 56cc saw was offered with 8 pin 3/8s or 7 pin 404. The cutters who used 404 were mainly older fellows who started out young with big saws and big chains back then they said it cut a little faster stayed sharper longer and lasted longer.
I cannot comment as all the 08S I have collected the few with 404 I changed to 3/8.
I think the reason that 404 fell out of favor was the saws were becoming smaller and 3/8 was becoming the standard and allowed changing between different saws in different sizes.I do not know exactly when 325 cams on the market but my 67 Pioneer Holiday 58cc came with 404 and my 70 Stihl 030 44cc with 3/8.
This subject has raised my curiosity and I am going to try the 08S with 404 and 3/8 just as kind of personal satisfaction because I have thought about this many times over the years but always took the easy way out 3/8s.
Kash

Pretty well spot on !

 

[Westboastfaller]

I have used .325 , .375 & .404 . Back in the day (60' S era.) .404 was a common havester size chain normally in .063 or .083 gauge . Today .050 or .058 is more prevalent . The benefits of .404 is that of increased overall tooth surface for cutting and removing chips from the kerf area along with additional strength and reduction within stretch and better retention of sharpness due to less aggressive grind profiles & quicker cutting rates in larger wood . The downside today is that of added weight , potential lower rpm & rate of cut within smaller wood & smaller hp saws and additional cost due to limited supply . Just my opinion

Some interesting history from you three gentlemen.
@4CornersPuddle
@KASH

So you and KASH had to throw a wrench in the cogs and say the 404 was said to be faster in bigger wood?
I believe you both spoke of a 56cc saw that also came with 404 chain way back in the day. I imagine you are speaking of other bigger saws too? Looking forward to Kash testing that theory with the 56cc saw.
Since it is a small saw then maybe it came down to the chip clearing as you said The 3/8 filed slightly more aggressive but had the tendency to plug easier in bar size wood?
I agree with you that 404 would last longer with less aggressive grinding with a bigger file. No real surprise there.

 

[user 122190]

Well ****.
Lap dances last a song or two. ******** about chainsaws can stretch decades.

Obviously the correct answer is do both. Just don’t do the first @Freds.

Close to RDO. I can fondle the 500i before....

 

[bwalker]

Back in the late sixties and early seventies here in Northwestern Ontario when pulp was at its peak a lot of the fallers used the Stihl 08s this 56cc saw was offered with 8 pin 3/8s or 7 pin 404. The cutters who used 404 were mainly older fellows who started out young with big saws and big chains back then they said it cut a little faster stayed sharper longer and lasted longer.
I cannot comment as all the 08S I have collected the few with 404 I changed to 3/8.
I think the reason that 404 fell out of favor was the saws were becoming smaller and 3/8 was becoming the standard and allowed changing between different saws in different sizes.I do not know exactly when 325 cams on the market but my 67 Pioneer Holiday 58cc came with 404 and my 70 Stihl 030 44cc with 3/8.
This subject has raised my curiosity and I am going to try the 08S with 404 and 3/8 just as kind of personal satisfaction because I have thought about this many times over the years but always took the easy way out 3/8s.
Kash

For 6 years I lived in NW Ontario outside of Kenora.
There is no big wood in that area and it's all soft wood. Even an old growth Jack pine is only 20" at biggest and very soft.
I imagine given that small, soft wood and a high torque old school saw like a 08S 404 might work OK.

 

[North by Northwest]

Some interesting history from you three gentlemen.
@4CornersPuddle
@KASH

So you and KASH had to throw a wrench in the cogs and say the 404 was said to be faster in bigger wood?
I believe you both spoke of a 56cc saw that also came with 404 chain way back in the day. I imagine you are speaking of other bigger saws too? Looking forward to Kash testing that theory with the 56cc saw.
Since it is a small saw then maybe it came down to the chip clearing as you said The 3/8 filed slightly more aggressive but had the tendency to plug easier in bar size wood?
I agree with you that 404 would last longer with less aggressive grinding with a bigger file. No real surprise there.

Yes. , WCF both mid range and heavy weight saws back in the day came oem with .404 chain on 16 " bars up to 36"+ for non professional wood cutting service . I find the concerns of .404 usage and saw strain a joke ! The worst damage to a saw is more due to a dull chain then a adequately sharpened .404 in a capable saw owners hands .

 

[bwalker]

Yes. , WCF both mid range and heavy weight saws back in the day came oem with .404 chain on 16 " bars up to 36"+ for non professional wood cutting service . I find the concerns of .404 usage and saw strain a joke ! The worst damage to a saw is more due to a dull chain then a adequately sharpened .404 in a capable saw owners hands .

I'm not sure the added stress from 404 amounts to much if the saw is properly tuned and the chain sharp. After all people mill with saws all the time and that stresses a saw much more IMO.

 

[user 122190]

Yes. , WCF both mid range and heavy weight saws back in the day came oem with .404 chain on 16 " bars up to 36"+ for non professional wood cutting service . I find the concerns of .404 usage and saw strain a joke ! The worst damage to a saw is more due to a dull chain then a adequately sharpened .404 in a capable saw owners hands .

I guess this point was missed by of many here (all too common). I went from a .325 to a 3/8 on my ms290. Nobody bats an eye about that jump of 0.05 in chain pitch size. Going from a 3/8 on the 500i to a 0.404 is only a 0.029 inch in chain pitch size. We are talking a very small jump in size.

And my ms290 cuts about 10 cords a year, and last year I did a compression test and it hadn't changed in over 2 years. Hard on the saw. Bull!

And I agree, a dull chain, putting ass into the saw via the dogs, milling, getting your blade pinched, etc. are the real loads on a saw.

 

[Andyshine77]

I guess this point was missed by of many here (all too common). I went from a .325 to a 3/8 on my ms290. Nobody bats an eye about that jump of 0.05 in chain pitch size. Going from a 3/8 on the 500i to a 0.404 is only a 0.029 inch in chain pitch size. We are talking a very small jump in size.

And my ms290 cuts about 10 cords a year, and last year I did a compression test and it hadn't changed in over 2 years. Hard on the saw. Bull!

And I agree, a dull chain, putting ass into the saw via the dogs, milling, getting your blade pinched, etc. are the real loads on a saw.

In your type of wood you're likely correct, in some of the stuff I cut the chain will be jittery no mater what, sounds and feels horrible, like a fork on a chalk board. That will rock the bearings out period, some saws more than others, 372, 390.

 

[Andyshine77]

I'm not sure the added stress from 404 amounts to much if the saw is properly tuned and the chain sharp. After all people mill with saws all the time and that stresses a saw much more IMO.

It's the impact, not just simply pulling the engine down.

 

[North by Northwest]

It's the impact, not just simply pulling the engine down.

I'm not sure the added stress from 404 amounts to much if the saw is properly tuned and the chain sharp. After all people mill with saws all the time and that stresses a saw much more IMO.

Your absolutely correct. Mr. Walker , Milling (ripping) puts the most stress on any saw , especially with the aggressive grind some of my buddies put on their milling chains . I have yet hear anyone of them damage a bottom end . More often damage a bar or chain from overheating from getting to aggressive in the cut , even with an auxiliary exterior oiler !

 

[North by Northwest]

It's the impact, not just simply pulling the engine down.

I guess this point was missed by of many here (all too common). I went from a .325 to a 3/8 on my ms290. Nobody bats an eye about that jump of 0.05 in chain pitch size. Going from a 3/8 on the 500i to a 0.404 is only a 0.029 inch in chain pitch size. We are talking a very small jump in size.

And my ms290 cuts about 10 cords a year, and last year I did a compression test and it hadn't changed in over 2 years. Hard on the saw. Bull!

And I agree, a dull chain, putting ass into the saw via the dogs, milling, getting your blade pinched, etc. are the real loads on a saw.

Hell , I run .375 semi chisel on my 50 cc 5105 H & 346 xp . I refuse to run girly .325 on any firewood saw. I suppose , if you are an avid cookie cutter , small profile chain on a 550 xp may be fun . However even my 576 xp I sold last fall had .404 on a 24 " Oregon bar cutting Hard rock Maple White & Red oak along with Mountain Ash & Ironwood . As far as size routinely see 18"-24" hardwood growth on my two quarter sections . Lots of Red & White Pine that surpass that size routinely , damm I have 30 " poplar routinely that I have to take down before they blowdown , I hate those damm widow makers . However , I do not harvest pine often , when I do I prefer Jackpine for kindling mixed with Cedar or Silver birch or for fire pit wood at hunting or fishing camps !

 

[North by Northwest]

I have no verifiable answers, however, in my limited experience I can’t discern any longevity advantage of square.404 over square 3/8, Semi chisel maybe - or maybe just the influence of the repeated assertions. Less binds - a fact though I don’t know why. Easier insertion of wedges - also a fact but I doubt a pro would actually need the extra space very often.

Ron

No , however the professionals back in the day did appreciate the self cleaning advantages of the. 404 chain when they encountered the dense & gnarly bark & grain of some of the larger species of wood . That is why I mentioned quicker rate of cut in larger species and potentially slower in smaller less dense species compared to .325 & .375 chain .

 

[Westboastfaller]

Yes. , WCF both mid range and heavy weight saws back in the day came oem with .404 chain on 16 " bars up to 36"+ for non professional wood cutting service .

I googled 3/8 vs 404. Came up with a 3 p thread on here from 2010 and one from 2011 on another site. One thing for sure, there was seasoned vets saying
the same things that "404 stays sharper longer"..."save more money in the long run"
Less jamming/pinching/plugging/stretching
/sagging/breaking/derailing.
I guy said we would probably not believe it but the 404 cut faster than 3/8 on the big old antiques he has.
Both were relatively similar to this thread scenario as only 2 out of ten are for the swap.
That didn't seem to change either..lol

Lots of talk about the O8 & the O8S on the one thread as you guys were talking about
Guy said he had the 3/8 OEM 3/8 O8S & wanted to try the 404 option. Said he took it off and never to try it again.
Other guy said it was a 56cc saw and it was fine. Said it's not fast but a tough, steady, 'one gear' work horse.

Another guy said the early O8 was only 48cc up to 1969 but don't let the size fool you. Said he bought a new one in '64 with 404 for $175. (Seems like alot?) He said the 48cc chugged along just fine.
Think it was another that said It wasn't the best balanced saw but lots of torque.
He closed with saying it was a good match... A tough saw with a tough chain.
It definitely has a following.

Wow..can't believe I retained all that.
*why couldn't I remember two word I read in school..Oh yeah that's right,, you didn't read two words in school*

The worst damage to a saw is more due to a dull chain then a adequately sharpened .404 in a capable saw owners hands .

Very true! Don't think anyone on his thread was/would disagree with that.

I find the concerns of .404 usage and saw strain a joke !

A "shock" from clattering into dry hard wood trying to penetrate a wider tooth.
Sounds like the extreme but maybe the extreme is quite common in his area?
"punching out bearing" on some saws? I'm not sure. It may feel 20 times worse on him.
It absolutely left him with that impression that it couldn't be good.
I would have to talk to him more.
You would definitely want the best set up for that if you had to do lots of it.
I don't like my eyeballs
bouncing.
---------

My buddy had a saw shop in Vancouver's lower mainland. He had a bundle cutting gig under the patella bridge that he would do maybe thee night after work.
It was a 72" bar with a tail handle full comp was needed. If I was visiting for a few weeks I would take his Mechanic about 3:00pm and run the power head and get it done by the time he closed. They would lay out about 52 bundles of 4'x4'x8' of dry 1"x2". It would come off the train and layed out with chalk lines through the centre. We would cut it and then they load it back on the train for the US market
We would get a fair bit of Cedar post too.
These guys were alway in a hurry to lay it out and we were always in a hurry to get out of there so if they didn't set the dunnage in the right spot then the
half (s) fold in or dont open up. He would send me with a couple ported 3120. You had to just keep the trigger on and try not to get it caught and plugged. Sometimes it could go bad wedging the halfs back up to get saw out. It's hard when it gets stuck still in the wood and the grove is plugged tight.
Sometimes powerhead had to come off.
I seemed to get them done pretty quick.
Hard on the saws. He wouldn't get so many chains before each rebuild,, It would be so many rebuilds to the chain. It would be the pack weigh that was punching out the bearing. He got sick of rebuilding them. He had an 088 & 090 but used the 090 and never had an issue. I tried saw once. Never again. Saws definitely have there limits.
That's why they came out with skip when saws became less powerful.