Tale of Two Brothers

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jfriesner

ArboristSite Lurker
Joined
Dec 7, 2017
Messages
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Location
Central MN
My younger brother and myself both revamped our heating systems this year and upgraded. I choose the OWB route and located a used one and traded labor for payment. I had to replace move the parts on the boiler and also spend a good $1500 to get it all plumbed in, pumps, and exchangers. The younger brother mocked me for going the wood boiler route mostly based on all the work it was going to be to harvest enough wood to feed it. He boasted that his system would burn 1/4 the amount of wood mine will and be a breeze to heat his house. Despite all the mockery I continued with my system and did all the installation work myself and kept costs to a minimum. Once it was all installed, fired up, and working well I began skidding, cutting, splitting, and stacking a years worth of wood. My goal was 10 cord and it took me several days to get it but I was victorious. The process went really easy as I was able to skid the logs to within 15-20' of my boiler and then cut, split and stack right next to it.

The younger brother choose a US Ashley indoor furnace. He worked equally as hard and diligently to get his system installed and running. It required the removal of his current traditional wood stove and adding duct work to the new system located in the garage now instead of the house. His argument was his system would keep all the mess out in the garage and ambient heat would keep the garage warm as well. The plan was also to keep a years worth of wood, since it would only be about 2-3 cord tops, inside as well. His final cost was about $1000 less then mine.

3 months later we are sitting in two very different places. He has had lots of trouble with getting decent burn times out of the furnace, especially on those -25 nights. He also quickly learned that it required VERY seasoned wood to burn, which he had none of so had to go buy fire wood! Who does that? I am partially joking here because we both own enough property to harvest more wood then we'll ever be able to burn. Creosote in the chimney almost started a fire and caused smoke to backup out the flue some how. So now his garage smells like a cigarette butt. Turns out having the mess in the garage isn't that big of an upgrade form having it in the house. The mess/smell still finds its way in and the bugs are right at your door step. The stove has struggled to heat his 1200sqft house and can't really be trusted to be left for any length of time. So his backup electric has been kicking on much more then he had planned. He is also on track to burn more like 3-5 cord and not the 2-3 he was hoping for. He also is realizing how much work taking a 40' oak tree and cutting it into 16" lengths, splitting it 4-6 times to get small enough pieces, then transport it all into his garage and stack in a way it doesn't take up too much room.

Mean while at our farm the boiler is on track to stay at or below the guesstimated 10cord. We keep our house, 2600sqft, at whatever temp we want, normally 73F. We heat all our domestic water which has been such a blessing to kill power to our water heater! And we added a hot tub that has been a game changer for the kids to have something to do on those -25F days outside. I never worry about chimney fire, let it buck! I also wasn't able to get a years worth of seasoned wood but for this year green is working just fine. We can easily get 18hr burn times even at -25. All our mess is truly away from the house and if I don't tell you we have a wood boiler most don't even realize it. The kids and I already have 5 cord ready to go for next year. It goes so fast when your cutting 30" pieces and splitting once, if that. Plus since I don't have to transport inside I am able to use equipment to move it around so i'm not touching it so many times.

Long story short the younger bromanchew is wishing he had a boiler! I'm not bashing indoor burners, they have their place and they have their fan base. I couldn't care less what you use to heat your house. Only thing I would recommend is to do a lot of research before choosing any wood burning stove. But if your goal is to produce a lot of BTU's, handle wood fewer times, have longer burn times, and have the ability to move heat to outbuilding, spa's, driveway melt, etc...then a OWB is what you need!
 
Having the equipment to make short work of 10 cords is a blessing in itself. Having enough wood within a stone's throw is also a blessing. I had a boiler for 8 years. I had to scrounge to feed it. I don't have equipment besides saws and a splitter to make it easier. The boiler earned it's keep and only have good things to say about it, except being very hungry.

I now have a blaze king princess. Stove, pipe, and misc items cost 2k. I installed myself and love it. Easy 8-10hr burns in MI (even with our month long extreme cold). I am on track to burn less than 2.5 full cords this year.

I'll take the 16" smaller splits.

Pretty awesome story of you 2 pursuing 2 different types of wood heat.
 
I also went the owb route but from full electric heat so my payback period for the system was fast enough for me. I also bought a used owb and replaced all mechanical parts with new. Too bad you didn't have another brother and he could have went the interior boiler route to see how it would stack up. No cost for insulated pipe would have been a $2000 savings for me. I have been considering moving my owb to a new location which would allow me to run lines above ground and build an attached building to store the wood in.
 
In my opinion the advantages of an IWB are:

* generally cheaper to set up
*don't have to go outside to load
*generally uses less wood
*usually more efficient
*don't have potential town zoning by-law issues

In my opinion the advantages of an OWB are:

*has longer burn times
*less splitting of wood (takes larger pieces)
*leaves the mess outside
*can heat multiple buildings, or one large building
*safer

Both have their pluses and minuses. To each there own.
 
Yes we are blessed to live where we do and have access to a sustainable source of energy. I do not take it for granted! We own 40 acres of heavily wooded forest here in central MN so short of a forest fire we wont ever run out of wood.
I have two more brothers but for some reason they are sticking with their electric heat sources. I will continue to work on them and bring them to the dark side. I was very fortunate that my boiler came with 100' of insulated pipe which cut my installation costs way down. It was used pipe but works just the same. I have actually been thinking the same thing and my plan is to build a small storage shed, 12x20 or so, where my boiler currently is and use the line to heat that shed. Then I can take the remaining 25' of pipe and move the boiler a little further away and may some day build a shed around it as well. Kind of daisy chain storage buildings to make my pipe go further and also get heated storage.

I think that is by far the biggest advantage to a boiler that my brother is missing right now. If he wants to expand or add something he also needs to add another heat source for it. Where as I can just add more pipe, to a certain point obviously.
 
We recently bought a house and farm and the house is heated with a hardy h4. I’m loving it. I tell my wife its my dragon because sometimes it blows smoke and one time it blew fire and burnt my eyebrows, eyelashes, and some of my hair.
 
Do you have an indoor fireplace or stove? I would like an outdoor boiler as my main heat source, but would have to keep my insert. My kids and wife would be pissed if they didn't have a fire to warm their backside next to.
 
Do you have an indoor fireplace or stove? I would like an outdoor boiler as my main heat source, but would have to keep my insert. My kids and wife would be pissed if they didn't have a fire to warm their backside next to.
I do have an insert fireplace with a blower on the second floor. We used it quite often the first year but quickly got sick of the constant mess and hauling wood up on the deck. We only light it a handful of times a year for ambiance now. When you can keep the thermostat at whatever temp you want there aren’t any cold backs to warm!
 
Firefigher, we also loved having a hot burner that you could warm up real quick in front of. Especially our dogs. My solution was to run an 8" vent right off my heat exchanger to a baseboard height 12x20" gril. The dogs and grand kids head right to it as soon as they come in from outside. Still not a fireplace but it was an easy hookup.
 
Sounds like your brother isn't doing something quite right. It could all be in wet/green wood, maybe? Although, I don't know much about his Ashley, maybe it isn't a good furnace to start with. And I would say 2-3 cord was a pretty optimistic hope. Usually basements are the best places for furnaces - after all, heat rises. But maybe it wasn't possible?

I can certainly see the appeal of an OWB, but I still wouldn't chose one. If I had a house, and an outbuilding I wanted some heat in, I would put an indoor boiler in one or the other depending where I wanted the fire, plus heat storage tanks and all my winters wood. Or boiler in one & storage in the other. Actually, that is what I did - all that stuff is in my basement. If I do ever get my garage built, I can run an underground line out to it. That way all the stand by heat loss gets lost to a structure that can use it. I really appreciate being able to generate heat without having to go outside, and this setup is efficient. I have 2700 sq.ft. in two stories, plus 1500 in unfinished basement, on an open windy hilltop, as warm everywhere that we want it to be, and think I am on track for 5 cords. I only actually have a fire burning for 5-6 hours a day thru the winter, which takes very little tending time. As the years go by, the less cords to round up (and process, and feed) each year the better.

But as usual - personal situations & preferences is what it comes down to and everyone has different ones. As long as one is happy with the result - that's what really matters.
 
I have to agree with Maple, your story has holes that don't make sense. My brother has an Ashley woodstove that he heats his house with every year. His house is about the exact same size as your brothers (1200 sq. ft.) and his house is always too hot (80 degrees). This is a 200 plus year old farmhouse. I have a Ashely I used to use in my 400 sq. ft. shop which was uninsulated and it was 80 within an hour of lighting it. I understand these are woodstoves not furnaces, but my old HVAC guy installs a lot of the Ashley furnaces and says for the money they work well.

Bottom line, its most likely not the furnace, its the wood he is using. Wet/unseasoned wood wont burn well in the best of furnaces. See if he has water in the cleanout while burning.
 
I have to agree with Maple, your story has holes that don't make sense. My brother has an Ashley woodstove that he heats his house with every year. His house is about the exact same size as your brothers (1200 sq. ft.) and his house is always too hot (80 degrees). This is a 200 plus year old farmhouse. I have a Ashely I used to use in my 400 sq. ft. shop which was uninsulated and it was 80 within an hour of lighting it. I understand these are woodstoves not furnaces, but my old HVAC guy installs a lot of the Ashley furnaces and says for the money they work well.

Bottom line, its most likely not the furnace, its the wood he is using. Wet/unseasoned wood wont burn well in the best of furnaces. See if he has water in the cleanout while burning.
Pretty sure I got holes in my brain from the lymes disease but the story is a true one! And I did say he was burning wetish wood. He wasn't trying to chop a tree down in his yard and throw it in. We drove about the forest and cut dead standing oak, maple, and a little birch. It still isn't as dry as seasoned wood and he found out how finicky the Ashley was. It will burn the wood but with the flue half open and it builds creosote fast and the wood burns quickly. He just bought a cord of seasoned wood so we'll see how it does with that. I told him it was user error the whole time just to give him a hard time. The stove will heat the house up to 80 as well but not constantly and for long periods of time. When its -30 out you need a consistent and long term supply of heat to keep things comfortable. A blast of warm air for a few hours isn't going to cut it. We are both hoping that with the dryer wood it will start to function properly and then get next years wood drying so he doesn't have to pay $$ for wood.
 
I wasn't trying to imply that you were lying. Only that it didn't make sense. Is his chimney on an exterior wall. That could be another factor. Pencil chimneys on the exterior of a building don't perform as well as an interior one. The other thing I forgot to mention is that my brother uses around 5 cords a year on average. I believe on bad winters he used closer to 6. I cant see any furnace using 2-3 cords. I'd say 5-6 would be more realistic.
 
I wasn't trying to imply that you were lying. Only that it didn't make sense. Is his chimney on an exterior wall. That could be another factor. Pencil chimneys on the exterior of a building don't perform as well as an interior one. The other thing I forgot to mention is that my brother uses around 5 cords a year on average. I believe on bad winters he used closer to 6.
I wasn't insinuating you were insinuating haha! I've had too much coffee already this morning. His stove is located against the gable end of his house which is dead center of his new 24x30 insulated garage. The chimney is probably 15' high of 8" double walled. About 3 weeks into using it is when the chimney completely plugged with creosote and backed smoke out the furnace and stunk the whole garage up. So obviously wet wood is a factor there.
 
The newer 2nd burn stoves/furnaces do require very dry wood. Typically less than 20% moisture content. I would bet that is the cause of most of his problems, but I don't have any experience with the Ashley furnace.

I am sure most standing dead oak is well above 20% moisture.
 
There is no doubt the standing dead oak is well above 20%. I have cut down a few standing dead ash and they were 28-29%. Good thing about them though is after being cut and split they were good to go in not much time at all.

As far as the comparison, I think there are a lot of variables. I haven’t used the newer more efficient burners but i have read they are very picky about wood moisture. Also, when number of cords used gets thrown around I make sure to look at where that person lives and what all are they heating?

When we bought our place I saw it had the OWB and at first I was excited but then after reading about peoples wood usage I got scared. Lol. People were talking about 10-15 cords for houses smaller than mine. But so far, I am on track to use no more then 10 cords and I am heating a 3100 sq ft house and full basement.

But also, I live in southern Ohio where it gets cold but nothing like -20 below for awhile. It can be single digits one day and in the 30’s the next. I also have a well insulated house and don’t use mine to heat our water although i can. So lots of variables to consider.

Even if i had to buy wood it would be much cheaper than anything else and I like that it is not picky whatsoever on wood, although I try to use good seasoned wood I have burnt wood that probably needed to season longer..
 
Don't know where you are in Central Mn(i'm a little south of St. Cloud) but if I cut a dead standing oak it is still mostly over 40% moisture. I don't know of much oak in our area that doesn't need 2 years to be less than 20%. I have some stuff I put up 6 months before I tested it and it was still close to 30%. It was dead as a door nail when I cut it. Figure it will be good after this summer.
 
I researched OWB and talked to a lot of people who owned them or used to own them. Their biggest complaint after the cost of the unit and hook up was how much wood they used and feed times. They were either doing it oh dark thirty in the morning or oh dark thirty in the evening and some both dark morning and evening depending on their job.


So I settled on a inside wood furnace to replace the 32 year old inside wood furnace. Duct work from the wood furnace was easy to hook up to my electric forced air furnace duct work. It is in the central area of my basement near a walk out door, I go down in my BVD's to fill it before bed time and in the morning. I can also store two week supply of wood behind it. As for the mess it is mostly left out side because it is split and loose bark removed then and any bugs get a dose of home defence sprayed on them.

I am happy with my inside wood burner and I am sure the people living next door would have a fit every time the thing was loaded with wood the the smoke started rolling.

:D Al
 
I researched OWB and talked to a lot of people who owned them or used to own them. Their biggest complaint after the cost of the unit and hook up was how much wood they used and feed times. They were either doing it oh dark thirty in the morning or oh dark thirty in the evening and some both dark morning and evening depending on their job.


So I settled on a inside wood furnace to replace the 32 year old inside wood furnace. Duct work from the wood furnace was easy to hook up to my electric forced air furnace duct work. It is in the central area of my basement near a walk out door, I go down in my BVD's to fill it before bed time and in the morning. I can also store two week supply of wood behind it. As for the mess it is mostly left out side because it is split and loose bark removed then and any bugs get a dose of home defence sprayed on them.

I am happy with my inside wood burner and I am sure the people living next door would have a fit every time the thing was loaded with wood the the smoke started rolling.

:D Al
Definitely not bashing your choice of stove. Just sharing our experience on a cold winter day to give everyone something to read and ponder. I personally love hearing peoples stories because it adds knowledge to my pool without me actually having to go through what they experienced. Living in central MN stoves of all kinds have been used to heat our homes for about as long as people have been here. I will say loading times and amount of wood have not been my experience with an OWB, or smoking my neighbors. I own 40acres but my house is located on the front edge so I have neighbors within about 500'ish. I went and spoke face to face with every one of them before and after installation and have had no complaints. Key is to play the prevailing winds and put enough stack on to keep it up high and burning dry wood makes a huge difference. I don't have much seasoned wood this year but the little I have smokes 1/4 of what green does. Excited for next year to burn cleaner! Even at -29 with a windchill around -50 I get 16hr burns. I feed it at my convenience in the morning and at my convenience in the evening. I never loose a second of sleep worrying about fire going out or waking up to a cold house. Its been a pretty cold winter so far in MN and since I lit the stove in September to now i've burned 5.25 cord. I stack every piece I burn this year in an exactly 1 cord rack so I can keep track of how much i need for future reference. Thats pretty good for a 1990's used boiler heating 2600sqft, all DHW for 7 people, and a 1200gal spa.
 
Don't know where you are in Central Mn(i'm a little south of St. Cloud) but if I cut a dead standing oak it is still mostly over 40% moisture. I don't know of much oak in our area that doesn't need 2 years to be less than 20%. I have some stuff I put up 6 months before I tested it and it was still close to 30%. It was dead as a door nail when I cut it. Figure it will be good after this summer.
I'm north of Crosby about 25milesish. We have quite a bit of oak/birch blow down from all the storms in the last 3 years. I have found that the upper 1/2 of the those trees is pretty dry and burns very clear but the bottom half of the tree isn't much better then green.
 
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