The Descriptive Process

[Skeans]

Be sure to write again when you have something to ad to the discussion.

Heck my last clear cut last summer was .75 per foot that was normal domestic nothing went export, right now export would be a dollar or so a foot, one of our better was 1.50 to 1.75 a foot best was just shy of 3 a foot.

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[northmanlogging]

One, we were told last Friday by one of the company foresters in 2018 the goal is no more choker setters or chasers it'll all be grapple ground and tethered for steep stuff the rest will be shovel logged.

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I get the "safety" aspect of this.

But I really hate when someone that has no experience with the actual work dictates how the work is going to be done, regardless of what type of work it may be.

The people performing the work should be allowed or at least be considered, they know whats going to happen and the best way to get it done, the suits just know numbers and what looks good, not necessarily what works good.

 

[northmanlogging]

Not to mention the sheer amount of people that will now be out of work because of this.

 

[Gologit]

Be sure to write again when you have something to ad to the discussion.

Hey, thanks...I'll do just that. Very kind of you. No, really, I mean that.

Now, since you seem to have set yourself up as the arbiter of what does or does not constitute a worthwhile post should I check with you before I hit the send button?
Or would it be better to just depend on your good graces to keep me relevant?

One question. In post# 2848 you said that your average tree had 225 to 250 feet in it. Are you logging are are you trimming hedges with a pair of hand snips?

 

[Skeans]

I get the "safety" aspect of this.

But I really hate when someone that has no experience with the actual work dictates how the work is going to be done, regardless of what type of work it may be.

The people performing the work should be allowed or at least be considered, they know whats going to happen and the best way to get it done, the suits just know numbers and what looks good, not necessarily what works good.

The head for our area I was told started in the rigging and has moved up to where he is now he's been helping push this stuff for them.

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[bitzer]

The head for our area I was told started in the rigging and has moved up to where he is now he's been helping push this stuff for them.

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I'm sure it's a safety and insurance thing. To me it sounds like the end of an era.

 

[Skeans]

I'm sure it's a safety and insurance thing. To me it sounds like the end of an era.

The technology that's available now is making it more affordable to do more with less man power heck they only have a part time cutter between to farms that are pretty large now.

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[bitzer]

The technology that's available now is making it more affordable to do more with less man power heck they only have a part time cutter between to farms that are pretty large now.

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I get it. Technology puts guys out of work, but not many can work that hard any more anyway . The sfi meetings I sit in are full of guts who don't know how to run a saw.

 

[northmanlogging]

The head for our area I was told started in the rigging and has moved up to where he is now he's been helping push this stuff for them.

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Yeah and?

Just cause someone has been around the work does not necessarily mean they understand the work. Way back (2 months) in the machine shop world that was a common saying "yeah I started on X blah blah blah...I'm the greatest blah blah blah, I've never scrapped a part blah blah blah" and they were a **** up then too.

Anyone in a suit is conning you or trying to sell you something.

Skeans I know your all for this tethering stuff, and it works, but at what cost? Not just money, but human, as well as markets, etc. We've been over this... Won't beat a dead horse on that one. Just if any of us are having trouble staying busy now... imagine if we were to all triple our production.

 

[Skeans]

Yeah and?

Just cause someone has been around the work does not necessarily mean they understand the work. Way back (2 months) in the machine shop world that was a common saying "yeah I started on X blah blah blah...I'm the greatest blah blah blah, I've never scrapped a part blah blah blah" and they were a **** up then too.

Anyone in a suit is conning you or trying to sell you something.

Skeans I know your all for this tethering stuff, and it works, but at what cost? Not just money, but human, as well as markets, etc. We've been over this... Won't beat a dead horse on that one. Just if any of us are having trouble staying busy now... imagine if we were to all triple our production.

Some of us it's the cost of working anymore the days of guys on the ground especially on company grounds are gone just the way it is. I'm for it because I've known enough guys killed and hurt cutting timber over the years same with my dad it's been nice to see that going down, one place I can see a huge advantage for it is blow down on steep ground like 08 a lot of fallers were killed and a lot of the guys were my age as well as vets.

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[northmanlogging]

What I really want to know is whats in it for the company that owns this company ground?

Its not their insurance that covers contract loggers.

If the past is any barometer on them, they could give 2 ***** if 1000 of us die every year, as long as they get their wood.

Its not their problem if you and I can't produce enough, cause they will just hire more.

Maybe I'm just a paranoid, but something tells me they are in on a cut if they want to make buying half a million dollar machines mandatory to work their ground

 

[Jhenderson]

Heck my last clear cut last summer was .75 per foot that was normal domestic nothing went export, right now export would be a dollar or so a foot, one of our better was 1.50 to 1.75 a foot best was just shy of 3 a foot.

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I'll assume that's gate price for the wood. What was your logging cost? That would include stumpage, falling, skidding, bucking, and trucking. After that we can discuss profit and loss. As I stated before, value has little to do with profit. I don't understand why some here are stuck on price delivered to the mill.

 

[Skeans]

I'll assume that's gate price for the wood. What was your logging cost? That would include stumpage, falling, skidding, bucking, and trucking. After that we can discuss profit and loss. As I stated before, value has little to do with profit. I don't understand why some here are stuck on price delivered to the mill.

That was profit, the markets here are hot really hot, the super high price stuff is special order wood the buyers pay the trucking which is to me, the tickets on the trucking ect, when we did the last masts some time back nothing was that high in price per load the trucking paid was 2500 just for the haul alone at 150 miles round trip it's gravy money compared to getting something long out of the woods. The highest paying single log we ever took out same thing it was a mast to a ship for a prince.

To your fuel question I'd bet in day we use 50 gallons on the clear cuts, our thinning we run through around 105 gallons a day with two machines and we're making about decent money doing that as well with three guys and no one on the ground.

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[Skeans]

What I really want to know is whats in it for the company that owns this company ground?

Its not their insurance that covers contract loggers.

If the past is any barometer on them, they could give 2 ***** if 1000 of us die every year, as long as they get their wood.

Its not their problem if you and I can't produce enough, cause they will just hire more.

Maybe I'm just a paranoid, but something tells me they are in on a cut if they want to make buying half a million dollar machines mandatory to work their ground

I couldn't tell you for sure but I can tell you this their own union crews have a couple on order as well how much of this safety stuff is from that? I can't say and don't know, heck a while back one guy got killed in a 1270B harvester from chain shot now guess what everyone needs 1/2 think Ar2 windows and all snow holes on harvester heads to be plated with 1/4" minimum who drove that a contractor then the company added it. Here's a cool fun fact though where we are we are required to have it but a few hours down south they're only required to run the stuff on landing processors. To answer your question about the tethering I'm not sure but I know some of it is their insurance as well just like I have to have a policy on my place for if anyone gets hurt they do as well.

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[Jhenderson]

Hey, thanks...I'll do just that. Very kind of you. No, really, I mean that.

Now, since you seem to have set yourself up as the arbiter of what does or does not constitute a worthwhile post should I check with you before I hit the send button?
Or would it be better to just depend on your good graces to keep me relevant?

One question. In post# 2848 you said that your average tree had 225 to 250 feet in it. Are you logging are are you trimming hedges with a pair of hand snips?

You don't have to be an arbiter to recognize a ridiculous sentence or phrase. As for volume; what I said was the average ( pine) tree on a job was 225-250. Unlike out west, most jobs here are TSI. We don't cut the biggest and best, we cut what needs cutting. I've got jobs I've worked 3 times in the last 35 years. How many jobs have you been back to?

 

[Jhenderson]

That was profit, the markets here are hot really hot, the super high price stuff is special order wood the buyers pay the trucking which is to me, the tickets on the trucking ect, when we did the last masts some time back nothing was that high in price per load the trucking paid was 2500 just for the haul alone at 150 miles round trip it's gravy money compared to getting something long out of the woods. The highest paying single log we ever took out same thing it was a mast to a ship for a prince.

To your fuel question I'd bet in day we use 50 gallons on the clear cuts, our thinning we run through around 105 gallons a day with two machines and we're making about decent money doing that as well with three guys and no one on the ground.

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What do you pay for wood that profits $1.50. Bd ft? Fuel alone doesn't make up logging costs. You forgot to list stumpage, equipment payments, average monthly repairs, insurance, and salaries. Divide all that by average production( not your best week) and you get a reasonable idea of costs.

 

[Skeans]

What do you pay for wood that profits $1.50. Bd ft? Fuel alone doesn't make up logging costs. You forgot to list stumpage, equipment payments, average monthly repairs, insurance, and salaries. Divide all that by average production( not your best week) and you get a reasonable idea of costs.

No payments and I own the wood, when we log here we don't buy the wood it's all off a split percentage, wages and all costs come out ahead to make the profit.

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[northmanlogging]

I'll assume that's gate price for the wood. What was your logging cost? That would include stumpage, falling, skidding, bucking, and trucking. After that we can discuss profit and loss. As I stated before, value has little to do with profit. I don't understand why some here are stuck on price delivered to the mill.

I pay percentage as well, usually 50/50 so if we're getting 600 mbf I get 300, then trucking runs around 300 per load, 4k average on a load (self loaders) =1200 ish, daily if I work hard enough, but realistically every 2 days

My costs are mobilization, which has never been over $500 total (skidder and excavator about $60 for just the skidder), fuel 30 gallons every 2 weeks of off road, and 30-60 gallons every week on road, average price of $250 every other week, for all vehicles, private included. And insurance around 2k a year, so what like $37 a week, If I run the dumper truck its considerable more, since it gets lousy mileage, and runs like crap on anything but premium, but then that is more or less treated as a separate entity, and billed into each load of rock/dirt I haul.

all told per week I need to make 400 to cover cost of doing business ish (less repairs). If i get 2 loads a week I make $2000 after expenses. If I push and get 4 I only burn a little more off road diesel, but make well over $4000 a week.

Problem with pushing harder is that I am gimpy already, pushing things that don't work well makes them break more, and then I'm stuck healing for a week. So I work at my own pace, running is not my forte.

 

[madhatte]

pushing things that don't work well makes them break more

Always a fine balance.

 

[Jhenderson]

I pay percentage as well, usually 50/50 so if we're getting 600 mbf I get 300, then trucking runs around 300 per load, 4k average on a load (self loaders) =1200 ish, daily if I work hard enough, but realistically every 2 days

My costs are mobilization, which has never been over $500 total (skidder and excavator about $60 for just the skidder), fuel 30 gallons every 2 weeks of off road, and 30-60 gallons every week on road, average price of $250 every other week, for all vehicles, private included. And insurance around 2k a year, so what like $37 a week, If I run the dumper truck its considerable more, since it gets lousy mileage, and runs like crap on anything but premium, but then that is more or less treated as a separate entity, and billed into each load of rock/dirt I haul.

all told per week I need to make 400 to cover cost of doing business ish (less repairs). If i get 2 loads a week I make $2000 after expenses. If I push and get 4 I only burn a little more off road diesel, but make well over $4000 a week.

Problem with pushing harder is that I am gimpy already, pushing things that don't work well makes them break more, and then I'm stuck healing for a week. So I work at my own pace, running is not my forte.

All I can say is back here we think we're doing good at 17-18 cts. a foot in good going. I spoke with the guy who won the last hardwood job I looked at. He said he was at $.26 cts a foot gross profit. Thats with at least 6 sorts on the landing, but after what he paid for the wood. That's big money in the east. Most of us shoot for $.17 cts a ft. .30cts + is a rare occasion. My hats off to you guys.