The Descriptive Process

[rwoods]

Not a mechanic nor an electrical engineer, so I learned the hard way that any electronic component that has its own ground needs to have the ground disconnected before welding. I doubt a master disconnect also cuts the ground, but I don’t know.

Once had one of those underground fences to keep my dog contained. The squirrels/skunks/possums kept digging down and biting the wire in two. Manufacturer suggested I replace the stranded wire with solid. I did, but it didn’t stop the nibbling though it did stop the breakage. Then every time we had a thunderstorm the ground fault outlet would trigger and the dog, being a smart one, would tour the countryside. Got tired of that so I plug it into the nearest non-protected outlet - same one that the garage door opener uses. Came home after a thunderstorm. Garage door won’t open. I go inside to find the breaker box door open and an open slot. The circuit breaker was blown through the metal protective cover and was lying at the opposite end of the garage. Long story to say lightning can do strange stuff.

Ron

 

[northmanlogging]

Not a mechanic nor an electrical engineer, so I learned the hard way that any electronic component that has its own ground needs to have the ground disconnected before welding. I doubt a master disconnect also cuts the ground, but I don’t know.

Once had one of those underground fences to keep my dog contained. The squirrels/skunks/possums kept digging down and biting the wire in two. Manufacturer suggested I replace the stranded wire with solid. I did, but it didn’t stop the nibbling though it did stop the breakage. Then every time we had a thunderstorm the ground fault outlet would trigger and the dog, being a smart one, would tour the countryside. Got tired of that so I plug it into the nearest non-protected outlet - same one that the garage door opener uses. Came home after a thunderstorm. Garage door won’t open. I go inside to find the breaker box door open and an open slot. The circuit breaker was blown through the metal protective cover and was lying at the opposite end of the garage. Long story to say lightning can do strange stuff.

Ron

See now, I've welding on loads of stuff, and hardly ever disconnected the batteries positive or negative terminal.

Never had an issue, but I'm also very careful about where I place my ground clamp for welding, generally on the same piece to be welded, or as close to it as possible, current will travel point to point through the least resistance. so any undue ground paths should be avoided.

There are many reasons, least of which that an arc from a moving part to a stationary part, makes 2 stationary parts. as well as arc "blow" and generally grounds lead to crappy welds.

Could also be that generally speaking most of my welding when batteries are involved is DC-

AC welding could cause issues? mabye, though i'm pretty sure I've done it with both, though rarely if ever have I used DC+

 

[Jhenderson]

Not a mechanic nor an electrical engineer, so I learned the hard way that any electronic component that has its own ground needs to have the ground disconnected before welding. I doubt a master disconnect also cuts the ground, but I don’t know.

Once had one of those underground fences to keep my dog contained. The squirrels/skunks/possums kept digging down and biting the wire in two. Manufacturer suggested I replace the stranded wire with solid. I did, but it didn’t stop the nibbling though it did stop the breakage. Then every time we had a thunderstorm the ground fault outlet would trigger and the dog, being a smart one, would tour the countryside. Got tired of that so I plug it into the nearest non-protected outlet - same one that the garage door opener uses. Came home after a thunderstorm. Garage door won’t open. I go inside to find the breaker box door open and an open slot. The circuit breaker was blown through the metal protective cover and was lying at the opposite end of the garage. Long story to say lightning can do strange stuff.

Ron

A neighbor lost their house in a thunderstorm thanks to a buried dog fence. We couldn’t figure out the strike location until our chief found the trench from the strike in the yard. It led them to the transformer in the basement and the charred floor joist, then up the wall, etc.

 

[rwoods]

See now, I've welding on loads of stuff, and hardly ever disconnected the batteries positive or negative terminal.

Never had an issue, but I'm also very careful about where I place my ground clamp for welding, generally on the same piece to be welded, or as close to it as possible, current will travel point to point through the least resistance. so any undue ground paths should be avoided.

There are many reasons, least of which that an arc from a moving part to a stationary part, makes 2 stationary parts. as well as arc "blow" and generally grounds lead to crappy welds.

Could also be that generally speaking most of my welding when batteries are involved is DC-

AC welding could cause issues? mabye, though i'm pretty sure I've done it with both, though rarely if ever have I used DC+

That's the difference between someone who knows what they are doing and someone like me who doesn't. Ron

 

[catbuster]

Well, It’s at the place formerly known as Whayne Supply and we’ll see how it goes. It does look like there was some sort of deadman that was on the power side of the ignition and whatever hit it jumped across and my mechanic and I agreed not to **** with it, but to just leave the sun and planet gears pulled to unload it easier.

Welding on stuff with electrical systems... Eh. High frequency current can do some wonky stuff (like shock the sh!t out of you), it’s effectively just high voltage AC jumping points to initiate an arc when TIG welding or plasma cutting, and we all know how high voltage acts funky. The thing about HF start is that the current is so low unless the welding is done on something really sensitive it works fine. Ground placement is critical for all the reasons mentioned above. But while I’ve used a stick welder to start equipment (yeah yeah, not recommended) I rarely ever disconnect the batteries to weld or cut anything.

 

[northmanlogging]

Well, It’s at the place formerly known as Whayne Supply and we’ll see how it goes. It does look like there was some sort of deadman that was on the power side of the ignition and whatever hit it jumped across and my mechanic and I agreed not to **** with it, but to just leave the sun and planet gears pulled to unload it easier.

Welding on stuff with electrical systems... Eh. High frequency current can do some wonky stuff (like shock the sh!t out of you), it’s effectively just high voltage AC jumping points to initiate an arc when TIG welding or plasma cutting, and we all know how high voltage acts funky. The thing about HF start is that the current is so low unless the welding is done on something really sensitive it works fine. Ground placement is critical for all the reasons mentioned above. But while I’ve used a stick welder to start equipment (yeah yeah, not recommended) I rarely ever disconnect the batteries to weld or cut anything.

Now, I've tried jumping 24v equipment and... let one of the clamps go astray... makes a pretty skookum welder lol

so I it would reasonably work since welders run around 24V, thought the amps might be a touch high lol.

You can weld with batteries, but you need 2 12v batteries, works fairly will with 1/8 7018 but you won't have a lot of control over amps... and it only really works on one or 2 sticks worth, so make sure you have a way to start yer vehicle.

 

[catbuster]

Now, I've tried jumping 24v equipment and... let one of the clamps go astray... makes a pretty skookum welder lol

so I it would reasonably work since welders run around 24V, thought the amps might be a touch high lol.

You can weld with batteries, but you need 2 12v batteries, works fairly will with 1/8 7018 but you won't have a lot of control over amps... and it only really works on one or 2 sticks worth, so make sure you have a way to start yer vehicle.

A Miller Trailblazer 325 will start a cold D7 like it doesn’t even need batteries with stinger & ground on the respective booster lugs, the important part is to get them off... Fast, otherwise there’s the risk of overcharging the batteries & them blowing up. The older Cat dozers like yours would be a scary thing to try with the two big ass batteries right there to the right of the seat.

 

[Skeans]

A Miller Trailblazer 325 will start a cold D7 like it doesn’t even need batteries with stinger & ground on the respective booster lugs, the important part is to get them off... Fast, otherwise there’s the risk of overcharging the batteries & them blowing up. The older Cat dozers like yours would be a scary thing to try with the two big ass batteries right there to the right of the seat.

Try that on a newer machine or something with a harvester head I’ll bet your day will be worse then a set of batteries.


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[northmanlogging]

A Miller Trailblazer 325 will start a cold D7 like it doesn’t even need batteries with stinger & ground on the respective booster lugs, the important part is to get them off... Fast, otherwise there’s the risk of overcharging the batteries & them blowing up. The older Cat dozers like yours would be a scary thing to try with the two big ass batteries right there to the right of the seat.

Sadly, Larry (the pushy dozer) has been moved to other owners...

The pony motor on it had some issues, namely the 6v starter didn't like 12v all day every day to get past the craptastic carburetor... The last time I got him started took a long hill and a Cat 220 excavator... but only a spritz of ether (not really sure that was necessary) well... actually... He ran from Granite Falls, to Shelton WA without a hiccup, got him off the trailer, and was teaching new owner the very minimal basics, and he popped the clutch with both feet firmly planted on the steer brakes... 2 mid sized trucks pushing and pulling later he fired up again... which was my cue to vacate with the cash lol.

I half wonder if jumping a welder straight to a starter would be better? Or I guess its the kind of deal where you would need 4 hands, 2 to hit the key and 2 to hold the cables until it fires and let er go

 

[northmanlogging]

Try that on a newer machine or something with a harvester head I’ll bet your day will be worse then a set of batteries.


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mathematically it would work, alternators generally only push 100 amps or so, so set the welder low, and stick machines already run at around 24v so a modern machine would probably be just dandy.

Hel I'd even try it direct to starter with a 12v machine... starter won't like it much, but it will sure turn the motor fast enough to ignore glow plugs and everything else lol

 

[Skeans]

mathematically it would work, alternators generally only push 100 amps or so, so set the welder low, and stick machines already run at around 24v so a modern machine would probably be just dandy.

Hel I'd even try it direct to starter with a 12v machine... starter won't like it much, but it will sure turn the motor fast enough to ignore glow plugs and everything else lol

I know some guys that have jumped newer machines and fried the computers in them.


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[northmanlogging]

I know some guys that have jumped newer machines and fried the computers in them.


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while possible, its more then likely because they hooked the cables up wrong.

battery to battery, never fear, "hooking to ground" if you get that backwards you just bought a computer.

Once right around 9/11 (as in shortly after) when security was still a madhouse, I dropped a friend off at the airport in a battered rusty 78 F-100, that had a weak starter... every cop in the place refused to give me a jump and threatened to have the truck towed if I didn't have it moved in 15 minutes... luckily I was able to rent a jump box at the bottom floor of the airport... and get the truck going in time
The cost of ignorance is apparently running down 4 flights of stairs, and about a mile while carrying a massive industrial jump pack. (note: this is after my leg got crushed)

I've never fried a computer, and i've jumped 24-12 and 12-24 12 to 6 positive ground to negative ground, (granted all the 6v stuff didn't have computers, but the truck I jumped em with does)

The only time there has ever been an issue it was dark, the abandoned wreck we were attempting to take to town (with no door, no glass, and no drivers seat at least one flat tire) didn't have a battery, and I hooked the cables wrong... There was sparks, a lot of smoke, and then fire, but the mouse that lived in the dash finally left (note, we both had working vehicles... but it sure would have been funny)

 

[Skeans]

while possible, its more then likely because they hooked the cables up wrong.

battery to battery, never fear, "hooking to ground" if you get that backwards you just bought a computer.

Once right around 9/11 (as in shortly after) when security was still a madhouse, I dropped a friend off at the airport in a battered rusty 78 F-100, that had a weak starter... every cop in the place refused to give me a jump and threatened to have the truck towed if I didn't have it moved in 15 minutes... luckily I was able to rent a jump box at the bottom floor of the airport... and get the truck going in time
The cost of ignorance is apparently running down 4 flights of stairs, and about a mile while carrying a massive industrial jump pack. (note: this is after my leg got crushed)

I've never fried a computer, and i've jumped 24-12 and 12-24 12 to 6 positive ground to negative ground, (granted all the 6v stuff didn't have computers, but the truck I jumped em with does)

The only time there has ever been an issue it was dark, the abandoned wreck we were attempting to take to town (with no door, no glass, and no drivers seat at least one flat tire) didn't have a battery, and I hooked the cables wrong... There was sparks, a lot of smoke, and then fire, but the mouse that lived in the dash finally left (note, we both had working vehicles... but it sure would have been funny)

Max amperage on these newer machines is at 100 amps, even the manuals for these CTL machines say no jump starts. When we bought our new harvester then first thing we were told is they are to be juiced vs jumped they’ve had computers fried in these machines by jump starting them.


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[northmanlogging]

Max amperage on these newer machines is at 100 amps, even the manuals for these CTL machines say no jump starts. When we bought our new harvester then first thing we were told is they are to be juiced vs jumped they’ve had computers fried in these machines by jump starting them.


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I'm gonna call that one more reason not to own a new machine
Couple that with the BS dealer serviceable only ****, kinda thing made to cost the user money, period. And we all know what a service call from Pape runs these days.

I suppose the work around would be to disconnect the batteries and jump charge them, but still I don't really see how a properly done jump start would effect the computer, all your doing is charging from a different alternator, absolutely no different then the alternator the machine is using volts/amps wise. Unless they are specifically designed to sense a jump start and "fry" the computer, in which case if the ****ing manufacture knows about it being an issue they could easily put a breaker or a fuse in the circuit to prevent this kind of thing. I mean after all, we logging we're out in the middle of nowhere,way past BFE, and if the machine ain't working we just lost a days wages, or worse if it fails on a slope, possibly death and dismemberment.

I'm gonna go ahead and say this is another reason not to mess with tethering machines, if the computers are that sensitive... and the computers is what you're dangling your fleshy bits from F that

 

[catbuster]

My computers have been remarkably easy to work on and don’t mind a jump start. The 336 I know has been boosted many times, especially in the winter, and it’s just fine (until lightning hit it). A lot of the gear I run is all over the N.A & European market, and having been in an Alberta winter, damn near everything was boosted. Maybe it’s just your equipment, I dunno. I still saw process most of my logs and we move them around with relatively low tech equipment.

 

[Skeans]

My computers have been remarkably easy to work on and don’t mind a jump start. The 336 I know has been boosted many times, especially in the winter, and it’s just fine (until lightning hit it). A lot of the gear I run is all over the N.A & European market, and having been in an Alberta winter, damn near everything was boosted. Maybe it’s just your equipment, I dunno. I still saw process most of my logs and we move them around with relatively low tech equipment.

It’s the bucking computers that are sensitive most of the iQan stuff would be fine. The system works good it’s great for diagnosing faults because it is so sensitive but the draw back is jump starting.

This is the bucking as well as the total machine computer system, under one of menus is a full display of the modules and connectors. If there’s a wire break say from the boom to the head it can tell it’s between there but before not at the connector for the computer on the head.


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[northmanlogging]

monday I got a call asking if I could run a skidder tues, as the help didn't show up, and when the "fallers" got there they managed to hit the skidder, luckilly the drive was inside at the time and not setting chokers...

Today I got a call to come get some firewood from the same landing...

Only to find out the same fallers had sent one onto the landing smashing up a bunch of small trees, crossing the firewood deck, nearly hitting the newer Deere 200 excavator and one of the crummies

really not stoked about heading up to this one

 

[rwoods]

Sounds like you better double up and put a hard hat on your hard hat. Ron

 

[catbuster]

Is it possible to drag up when you own the company? I’m about over the job I’m on right now. Silty clay garbage has turned the whole place into a mud pit even after spreading 470 tons of DGA on the pad and another 175 of 3s on the short driveway, the place flooded over the weekend, and of course the new(ish) superintendent with supposedly seven years of experience didn’t bring any suction hose with the damn pump today.

Time to do Ron’s thing and go sit on a stump for a while.

 

[madhatte]

Worked on 3 fire pumps today. First one needed a head gasket, done, runs great. Second needed a new pull cord, done, all's well. Third? Replaced/tested starter, solenoid, switch, and all interconnecting wiring for both the high and low current sides. Everything checks out good and yet it still won't run. It's a head scratcher.