Trash pump, vs High pressure fire pump?

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Well, I've been wanting to get me a little fire fighting unit for some time now, but they are not cheap... however I think with a little scrounging and the right parts I may be able to build a usable version for less then 500 bones.

The kicker is that a decent fire pump is 800 new, or 2000 on C's list (not sure why). But a trash pump which from the outside is nearly identical is 150-300 used.

What I don't know for sure is if a trash pump will have the stones to push 80 plus psi, if necked down from 2-3" to 1.5" or less?

Anybody ever try this before?

The frame/tank/and hoses bit is easy, the pump is the hard part.
 
I rent trash pumps from time to time. The little gas 5hp gas powered one I got last time moved a fuk ton of water real quick-like. I was pleasantly surprised. Obviously never run a fahr pump
 
A buddy of mine builds skid units. He likes to say " if you use a trash pump you end up with....trash. " Not sure what fire pump your comparing to but most of them put out way more than 80 psi at the discharge. I believe a lot of what separates the trash vs fire is quality of parts an ease of repair. Its no big deal to swap a pump head off the engine on most fire units. What model fire pump u comparing to?
 
A buddy of mine builds skid units. He likes to say " if you use a trash pump you end up with....trash. " Not sure what fire pump your comparing to but most of them put out way more than 80 psi at the discharge. I believe a lot of what separates the trash vs fire is quality of parts an ease of repair. Its no big deal to swap a pump head off the engine on most fire units. What model fire pump u comparing to?

No particular model, most fire pump are rated at 100-150 psi, but what little experience I have with fire hose they where running about 80-90 and getting it done.

The trash pumps have no psi rating, so I'm a little lost for numbers.
 
Do the fire pumps list a flow rate for a given pipe size? You can also compare the power rating of the pump. The PSI can be calculated from the flow rate, but it's a *****
 
I'd say it depends on what you want to move that water for, and how often. A trash pump is called that not because it's a low-quality unit, but rather because it's able to pass chunks through the impeller without damage. If you go the fire pump route, you need to know whether you want a 1- 2- or 4-stage unit. All of them need to be protected against loss of flow as water is both the lubricant and the coolant. You could also opt for a positive-displacement pump if you only care about pressure and not flow. There's a lot of variables.
 
The skid unit in our wildland unit is a single-stage centrifugal pump. That means low pressure, high volume. It works very well.

When you're fighting wildland as an engine crew, you very rarely want a high pressure pump because it scatters your burning stuff and it can aerate the fire. What you really want is to soak the fuel and dissipate the heat whilst cutting off the oxygen flow. Also, the size of your hose will cause the pressure to vary at a specific GPM.
 
For what you really need, an affordable pump that starts easily will work just fine. Right now, all of ours ( 5 brush trucks and three portable pumps) are single stage centrifugals like catbuster's. We have switched to all Honda power, just for trustworthiness. I have a pair of high pressure 4 stage heads we can swap onto our portable pumps, they have never been used except to try them out. The GX390 powered pumps are a little undersized to deal with an 1 1/2" preconnect, but still get the job done on a car fire, or something like that. I have one with the GX630, and eventually, we will change over all of our trucks to that engine and the appropriate pump.
 
We use the 23-HP Briggs Vanguard V-twins with the Wildfire 4-stage centrifugal pumps on belt-drive speed increasers, attached to a tank (we have 250, 300, 410, and 1000 gal tanks). They'll do either pressure (~300psi) or flow (~200gpm) but not both at the same time. It's a good, handy, dependable system. You may be able to find them as "portable" units since Wajax used to sell an identical setup called the BB-4, but I'm not sure Wildfire sells them that way any more.

EDIT: one rig has a 20-HP Honda V-twin and a single-stage Darley. Good engine, lousy slip, pump would be fine if I didn't have to worry about it losing a prime.
 
The trash pumps are usually rated at gallons per hour, and the fire pumps are gallons per minute, trash is 11,000 gph, the fire is like 90 gpm, so so probably fairly comparable, just a matter of how much slips by the trash pumps impeller... which from what I gather is about the only difference between single impeller pumps is the clearances... and meaty ness of a trash pump.

I don't really plan on draining any ponds or what not with it, not really my cup of tea. All I want it for is a stand by unit in case I make a bigger mess then my 2 piss pots can handle... or considering the fact the rest of the state is torching, and across the street from me is not much more then 10,000 acres or so of forest...

Lake Chellan is only like 40 miles by air do east.
 
I don't really plan on draining any ponds or what not with it, not really my cup of tea. All I want it for is a stand by unit in case I make a bigger mess then my 2 piss pots can handle...

Solid point. Yer gonna be fine with a trash pump.
 
Northy how can I say this politely...uhm most everything written here is wrong. No offense guys but this was my profession for many years. Like Nate said the difference between a trash pump and a fire pump is the clearance inside the pump.(There is also a general purpose water pump between these two the can vary from cheapo plastic housings to very high quality pumps). As was stated a trash pump is meant to pump solids about half the diameter of the discharge. A 3" trash pump will pass solids a little smaller the 1 1/2" diameter. A "high pressure" pump made for fire fighting needs to pump clear water, not even sand, or it will wear out fast. I put high pressure in quotes because that term has no standard definition outside the fire service. Most consumer and industrial portable pumps are rated in gallons per hour AND head pressure. The two have to be considered together. Gallons per hour or GPH means how much water the pump puts out when drafting (using hard suction hose and with a water source at the same elevation as the pump and at or near sea level). Head pressure means how much force the water stream has to overcome positive elevation change. One foot of elevation equal to .433psi. This can be rounded up to 1/2psi per foot. So if a pump is rated at 80 feet of head pressure then it can put out around 40psi. This is all the pump is capable of, reducing the discharge size can not make the pump produce a higher pressure. Physics and stuff. If you hook the pump to a positive pressure water source like a hydrant that has a higher flow rate than the pump's rating then it may boost the pressure somewhat. Wildland fire nozzles are rated from 50psi to 100psi depending on the nozzle to achieve their rated gallons per minute or GPM and the best performance. A nozzle is matched to the pumps pressure and volume. Still a small fog nozzle made more for industrial use (read plastic nozzle) should work OK with a 1 1/2" pump. Just don't expect much throw.

So there is a trade off between volume (GPH or GPM) and pressure (head pressure or rated pressure). As your need for pressure rises because your fire (and nozzle) is 20' higher than the pump then the volume goes down. There is nothing you can do about this with an inexpensive portable pump. Also if your nozzle has adjustable gallonage and you open it up because the fire is getting bigger, then the pressure, your throw, goes down. This is why you see so many 1 1/2" pumps supplying 1" hose on the back of fire trailers. The operator needs to keep his pressure at the maximum the pump will put out. On the other hand with a water trailer (aka water buffalo) designed for contractor use the hose will be 1 1/2" because the need is for a large volume of water to the construction project.

Purpose built wildland fire pumps are rated up to 450psi. This is because there is a need to overcome friction loss in long hose lays and also to pump uphill. Very long hose lays may have several pumps (and portable tanks) all pumping in tandem. Those pumps are expensive (and finicky). Those are the multi stage pumps that were mentioned above.

So how to simplify this? Buy a Honda WH15 or a WH20. I also think I saw an ad in the latest Loggers' World for someone up your way selling a Honda powered fire pump for about $1,500.00. I hadn't finished reading that issue when I ended up giving to a friend of mine.

Oh and don't buy a trash pump unless it is one of Nate's nuclear powered ones.
 
Northy how can I say this politely...uhm most everything written here is wrong. No offense guys but this was my profession for many years. Like Nate said the difference between a trash pump and a fire pump is the clearance inside the pump.(There is also a general purpose water pump between these two the can vary from cheapo plastic housings to very high quality pumps). As was stated a trash pump is meant to pump solids about half the diameter of the discharge. A 3" trash pump will pass solids a little smaller the 1 1/2" diameter. A "high pressure" pump made for fire fighting needs to pump clear water, not even sand, or it will wear out fast. I put high pressure in quotes because that term has no standard definition outside the fire service. Most consumer and industrial portable pumps are rated in gallons per hour AND head pressure. The two have to be considered together. Gallons per hour or GPH means how much water the pump puts out when drafting (using hard suction hose and with a water source at the same elevation as the pump and at or near sea level). Head pressure means how much force the water stream has to overcome positive elevation change. One foot of elevation equal to .433psi. This can be rounded up to 1/2psi per foot. So if a pump is rated at 80 feet of head pressure then it can put out around 40psi. This is all the pump is capable of, reducing the discharge size can not make the pump produce a higher pressure. Physics and stuff. If you hook the pump to a positive pressure water source like a hydrant that has a higher flow rate than the pump's rating then it may boost the pressure somewhat. Wildland fire nozzles are rated from 50psi to 100psi depending on the nozzle to achieve their rated gallons per minute or GPM and the best performance. A nozzle is matched to the pumps pressure and volume. Still a small fog nozzle made more for industrial use (read plastic nozzle) should work OK with a 1 1/2" pump. Just don't expect much throw.

So there is a trade off between volume (GPH or GPM) and pressure (head pressure or rated pressure). As your need for pressure rises because your fire (and nozzle) is 20' higher than the pump then the volume goes down. There is nothing you can do about this with an inexpensive portable pump. Also if your nozzle has adjustable gallonage and you open it up because the fire is getting bigger, then the pressure, your throw, goes down. This is why you see so many 1 1/2" pumps supplying 1" hose on the back of fire trailers. The operator needs to keep his pressure at the maximum the pump will put out. On the other hand with a water trailer (aka water buffalo) designed for contractor use the hose will be 1 1/2" because the need is for a large volume of water to the construction project.

Purpose built wildland fire pumps are rated up to 450psi. This is because there is a need to overcome friction loss in long hose lays and also to pump uphill. Very long hose lays may have several pumps (and portable tanks) all pumping in tandem. Those pumps are expensive (and finicky). Those are the multi stage pumps that were mentioned above.

So how to simplify this? Buy a Honda WH15 or a WH20. I also think I saw an ad in the latest Loggers' World for someone up your way selling a Honda powered fire pump for about $1,500.00. I hadn't finished reading that issue when I ended up giving to a friend of mine.

Oh and don't buy a trash pump unless it is one of Nate's nuclear powered ones.
Thanks 2dogs, this is what I was looking for.

so for short hose and mostly level it might work, but I'd be better off getting a proper "high" pressure pump.
IDK. Northy is such a crafty wordsmith that I sometimes can't understand what he is saying. I thought he was looking for a pump to complete a small setup to handle fires (fahrs) that he accidentally started in the course of his logging business in these tinder-dry conditions. North may be independently wealthy, but most gypo's aren't made of money. Given that situation, I'd bet a quality trash pump would work fine. If I've misread, and out leviathanic friend is planning on becoming a part-time woodland fire fighter, then never mind.
 
IDK. Northy is such a crafty wordsmith that I sometimes can't understand what he is saying. I thought he was looking for a pump to complete a small setup to handle fires (fahrs) that he accidentally started in the course of his logging business in these tinder-dry conditions. North may be independently wealthy, but most gypo's aren't made of money. Given that situation, I'd bet a quality trash pump would work fine. If I've misread, and out leviathanic friend is planning on becoming a part-time woodland fire fighter, then never mind.

Uh, Jon? If you gave me a medical opinion I'd recognize the experience, education, and training behind your adice and I'd probably do exactly what you said. Not knowing as much as you do I'd be foolish to argue with you.
If 2Dogs gave me advice on fire related stuff I'd treat his advice the same way as I'd treat yours.
 

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