Tree root zone vs excavator luke 23 : 34

[derwoodii]

Luke 23 : 34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

I say, what the hell are you doing!! They say, the plans show a 900mm x 900mm fence footing so it goes where it says...

Sigh,,, more trees lost to degree holding architects / muffin heads.

 

[outofmytree]

Can't tell from the pics derwood. Is that a Casuarina? Oh, and what is in the fell zone? Because with 180 degree root loss we know it will fail it is just a matter of when......

 

[derwoodii]

Nah its just a peppermint, Euc nicholii. Actually not that good position as beside HV lines so it cactus up top and now from below. The point shown is the blinked minds that just don't see any connection with trees & root zones.
This is grade 6 biology stuff and these nuffies are degree holding planners and design engineers. Sigh....

 

[S Mc]

I feel your frustration!! It really doesn't matter what kind of tree it is if they don't understand the ramifications. The next time might be a high value species in a high profile setting.

The point is, why on earth aren't these highly trained and educated "professionals" required to know basic tree and plant biology when they cannot avoid it in their design plans????

I ended up losing it in a "discussion" with someone the other day. I heard the phrase "it's just a tree" one too many times. :censored:

Sylvia

 

[glennschumann]

I'm one of those boneheaded, sensless degreed building designers, and as such, I have to stand up and accept the accolades and blame for those in our industry.

I'm sorry.

Yes, there are still folks in this industry who see trees as line item in the site clearning budget, but there are many others who have much more respect for them. I'm proud to say that one of our hospital projects was designed for a site, and was driven by the location of two trees. One a large pine, and the other a very large oak. The attachement shows the hospital and the pine tree, but only references the oak in the last page. I wish I had a photo for you to see. That is not to say that other trees were not lost, but our designers (architects, interior designers, landscape and civil engineers) were all sensitive to the trees through out the project... and a big deal was made to keep them through construction too.

I've been a tree hugger since I was four, and when out on walks with my parents, I would insist on draging home any branch I found that had leaves on it so my parents could plant it so the tree wouldn't die. I get frustrated when I see things like the above photos too.

There is a huge movement in the architecture schools for "Green design" and the next generation of architects won't know how to design any other way. This is promising, but school encouraged composting toilets, and solar cells are not going to make it into most commercial projects. Change will be an evolution, not a revolution.

Architects, engineers, and contractors are not always to blame for these poor decisions, however. Owners, zoning, budgets, architectural review boards, schedule, and "That is the way we have always done it" can be the enemy of intellegent decisions. Education needs to happen at all levels of a project, not just to the design figure head. Your patience in educating the uneducated may not fix the first dumb design you encounter, but eventually, it will help, especially if you can offer a viable alterative.

And along the notion of education, no, cutting off the roots so close to the tree was not often discussed in school.. especially with respect to the physics of a tree falling over... just getting the contractor to not drive over the roots was the emphasis. It seems so obvious, but without education on these things, other topics of concern dominate, and the tree looses.

I welcome more education.

 

[clearance]

Luke 23 : 34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

I say, what the hell are you doing!! They say, the plans show a 900mm x 900mm fence footing so it goes where it says...

Sigh,,, more trees lost to degree holding architects / muffin heads.

Looks like a ditch for a footing that a substantial wall will be built upon. This tree has to go, unlike other situations where trees are removed or damaged that could have been preserved.

 

[treeseer]

Looks like a ditch for a footing that a substantial wall will be built upon. This tree has to go,

And you say this based on....a picture? The trees may make it fine, IF some care is taken. Much recent research on root cutting and stability in the arb journal. Would have been far better to bridge over, yes.

"There is a huge movement in the architecture schools for "Green design" and the next generation of architects won't know how to design any other way."

Unfortunately, landscape architects are not well clued into the needs of existing trees. Nothing devoted to this in the entire MLA program here.

:monkey:

 

[S Mc]

Glenn, I am immensely encouraged by your words. We have to realize, of course, that there are always the Good, the Bad and the Ugly in any profession. Many who care and strive to achieve, many others who go with the path of least resistance often accompanied by the most return.

I am currently enrolled in a Soil Science course whose text is James Urban's Up By Roots. Mr. Urban, as I understand it, is a Landscape Architect. Even though I have just started this book, I have found myself standing up with a "Huzzah!" on several occasions as he proposes large trees rather than small in urban landscapes, planting the right tree in the right place but also making the place right for the tree, feeling that if a tree does not survive into maturity the design has "failed"....I could go on.

He also says "Know what you do not know". Many times this is the problem. Someone doesn't realize they do not have the facts or make assumptions based on misinformation. I am constantly amazed at the viewpoint of so many that view trees as disposable assets if not downright liabilities.

As you said, education. I, too, welcome more education.

Sylvia

 

[clearance]

And you say this based on....a picture? The trees may make it fine, IF some care is taken. Much recent research on root cutting and stability in the arb journal. Would have been far better to bridge over, yes.

"There is a huge movement in the architecture schools for "Green design" and the next generation of architects won't know how to design any other way."

Unfortunately, landscape architects are not well clued into the needs of existing trees. Nothing devoted to this in the entire MLA program here.

:monkey:

Based on a picture, with over twenty years of construction and tree work experience also, yes.

 

[treeseer]

Read the research; trees with 40% cut can make it.

Based on a picture, with over twenty years of construction and tree work experience also, yes.

Personal and anecdotal experience is often worth following, but as The Legends of Arboriculture admit, practitioners can take pride in doing things the same way for twenty years, not knowing they were wrong. Information anywhere can become inbred, as ideas are repeated back and forth like an echo chamber within an isolated group of people. Only by crosschecking your facts between a range of sources, experience and references can you confirm their reliability.

 

[clearance]

Read the research; trees with 40% cut can make it.

Personal and anecdotal experience is often worth following, but as The Legends of Arboriculture admit, practitioners can take pride in doing things the same way for twenty years, not knowing they were wrong. Information anywhere can become inbred, as ideas are repeated back and forth like an echo chamber within an isolated group of people. Only by crosschecking your facts between a range of sources, experience and references can you confirm their reliability.

Fair enough. What is the ditch for? I say a heavy brick or stone wall, which needs a reinforced concrete foundation well below the frost line. What do you think, about the purpose of the excavation?

 

[treeseer]

Fair enough. What is the ditch for? I say a heavy brick or stone wall, which needs a reinforced concrete foundation well below the frost line. What do you think, about the purpose of the excavation?

Someone wants to build a big heavy wall, like you and the op said. Should be able to make that coexist with the tree. It would have taken thought and expense to bridge, but the trees are so close damage would have been severe anyway.

Not familiar with species--how tolerant are they of root loss?

 

[outofmytree]

Eucs in general respond quite well to root pruning Guy. By dropping large branches on whatever is put there...

We don't get too many nicholii in WA but the few I have worked with were not what I would term reliable trees. The foliage is dense, the timber is heavy for a Euc and when cut they snap faster than most.

I am curious as to what sort of fence is being installed with a footing in Melbourne. Derwoodii?? Any clues there? A wall requires a footing in Australia but fences are most commonly posts set in concrete 2.4m apart.

Maybe its a trench for a hardiplex fence?

 

[HorseShoeInFork]

Yup, those trees are toast!!!!!!

 

[clearance]

Someone wants to build a big heavy wall, like you and the op said. Should be able to make that coexist with the tree. It would have taken thought and expense to bridge, but the trees are so close damage would have been severe anyway.

Not familiar with species--how tolerant are they of root loss?

Perhaps a bridge, that is a reinforced beam higher than the rest of the footings would not be acceptable, for a few reasons. To make a bridge would not be that difficult, simple elevation changes in footings like that are not complex. I done lots of concrete formwork, usually you have plan to work from.

And the op never said they were going to biuld a big heavy wall, I deduced that from the picture.

 

[gink595]

It looks like a utility ditch to me, water, sewer or gas line??? Sometimes trees aren't in the plan. I hate it when they do that kind of work down city streets and take out all the big old trees, makes you sick. Glad I'm not he property owners sometimes

 

[derwoodii]

Many thanks your replies special to Glen. As summed up by Smc, I was very humbled. The fence is over the top brick work and steel. Why, dunno just is. The footing is high end of design needs. Why dunno?? Its loam sand here no reactive clays & we don't get perma frost in sunny ozzyland.
Outofmy the E nicholii (Willow Peppermint) over this side seem opposite to yours. Soft easy predictable fast growing short lived garden planting of the 1970-80ies. Ive soxed heaps wrong planted or end of life . They are kinda of a money tree for us here. Happy to further explore this.

 

[outofmytree]

Ahhh, now it becomes clear.

They installed the steel pickets to catch the trees that will fall over after they cut the roots to install the footing that supports the wall that includes the pickets.... I need another drink.

 

[outofmytree]

E nicholii (Willow Peppermint) over this side seem opposite to yours. Soft easy predictable fast growing short lived garden planting of the 1970-80ies. Ive soxed heaps wrong planted or end of life . They are kinda of a money tree for us here. Happy to further explore this.

Interesting. Fast growing to what height for you guys?

We get maybe 20 metres but it takes 30 years or so to get there. Oldest stable tree I have personally worked on was 40 yo, lasered at 18 metres, dbh 1 metre. It reminded me of Agonis flexuosa (Weeping peppermint) in bark texture, leaf shape and of course the "minty" smell when crushed. This was the first I climbed so I was quite surprised at how the wood was both heavy and snapped off quickly before the top cut married up with the undercut.

What sort of annual rainfall do you get where you live?

 

[derwoodii]

E nicholii (Willow Peppermint)

Now your and my descriptions are starting to line up. I reckon we got the right species only difference was our perception of its handling. I was thrown by your view of it timber heavy not reliable foliage dense. I started thinking about Sugar gums. But once you added 20 metres 30 years Agonis flexuosa bark texture leaf shape and of course the "minty" smell I got on the same page.
Im in Mornington peninsula area we used to get 600 - 800mm now lucky if we see 400-500 things are getting very drought bad here 27% in city dams.

Been busy? News says get your saws sharp and fueled
http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/tree-crushes-house-as-storm-brews-20090909-fhhn.html

A tree has crushed a house south-east of Perth as a storm bears down on Perth - with the worst of the front expected to hit the city this evening. SES volunteers from Armadale have arrived at the Mann Place home to help clear the damage.