Tree root zone vs excavator luke 23 : 34

[Ekka]

Ewww. Is that yellow line where you recommend the driveway goes? You mean to tell a developer that he/she can scrape to 200mm below grade, add 100mm of builders sand, compact to spec then add paving or bitumen? All within 4xDBH as per your drawing? How does this line up with preserving the "feeder" roots present in the top 300mm of soil? If this an example of your sterling work you need to go back to working as a fitter. Someone hand this man a spanner.

Well here goes the fool again. opcorn:

Where did I say scrape and all the other crap your foam forth?

I didn't but your tainted little brain comes up with all sorts of rubbish like that.

So now a paint shopped sketch is an architects drawing eh, you just like behaving like a thoroughbred idiot I'm sure.

There's many engineered alternatives to scraping, there's many options but your linear defecating brain cant persue those paths because it's too hell bent on being belligerent rather than viewing a solution and input.

You still assume that the tree in your picture is a retention. Some estates here when the builders are gone has just the house sitting on it, no driveway, sometimes no fences either, no landscaping etc. They just build the house the rest is the owners problem later. You do not know for sure what the story is yet not only slag on the builder but others who offer solutions .... truly a world class fool!

As far as being a fitter/turner previously it was a great practical experience, and another trade of which I haven't added all those units of competency up ... must be worth another 20 odd. The best part about being a fitter/turner was not only could I walk up to just about any piece of equipment and machinery and strip it + put it back together again but I could make a new part. I was well versed in the machine shop, fabricate, machine parts up etc. Very handy trade to have with this job especially working with builders as "we click" about doing things, and the objective is the task not carrying on like you do with tripe.

derwoodii, ultimately it's the Local Govts fault, they are the regulators and if their DA's are that hopeless that they dont ask or miss stuff out then they need to address that. They have plenty of tools at their disposal these days to know about trees, but if they forget to ask and check then that hole needs to be plugged.

Here it's common to survey all vegetation greater than 200mm DBH including neighbouring vegetation within 10m of boundaries. There you go, that one sentence covered it all. Now if the developer/builder etc omits that and council dont pick it up who's fault is it? Councils.

 

[outofmytree]

Where did I say scrape and all the other crap your foam forth?

I didn't but your tainted little brain comes up with all sorts of rubbish like that.

So now a paint shopped sketch is an architects drawing eh, you just like behaving like a thoroughbred idiot I'm sure.

There's many engineered alternatives to scraping, there's many options but your linear defecating brain cant persue those paths because it's too hell bent on being belligerent rather than viewing a solution and input.

Lol. So instead of scraping to prepare for a driveway you suggest they add fill? So you reckon it is better to bury and compact the roots than scrape them out? Either option is trouble for a tree at 4xdbh.

So lets say we follow your "plan" and still maintain 12xdbh. The tree is about 700mm dbh so the RPZ is 8.4 m. Add that to the 2.4m already taken to the left of the trunk and the trunk itself which makes 11.5m. How wide is this block? How close is the olive tree? How much extra will an "s" bend driveway cost?

So lets weigh up the options shall we?

Option 1. Change the garage position on the plans prior to building. Worst case scenario is the HO gets slugged $100 for a plan change.

Option 2. Use the Ekka plan and wind your driveway around pre-existing council trees at a likely cost of thousands of dollars.

Option 3. Buy a helicopter.

About the only thing you said that was correct was.....

Ekka.
Well here goes the fool again.

So long as you were talking about yourself.

 

[Ekka]

My comments are in red, sadly once again I need to no only inform but defend myself of an ignorants attacks.

Lol. So instead of scraping to prepare for a driveway you suggest they add fill? Where did I suggest they add fill? Once again you add your own BS to fit your belligerent motives. So you reckon it is better to bury and compact the roots than scrape them out? I didn't reckon anything of the kind at all but interesting to see your ignorant brain at work. Either option is trouble for a tree at 4xdbh. Where did 4xDBH com from as I dont recall mentioning it?

So lets say we follow your "plan" and still maintain 12xdbh. My plan, I didn't recommend any specification but once again you did, so it's YOUR plan not mine. The tree is about 700mm dbh so the RPZ is 8.4 m. Add that to the 2.4m already taken to the left of the trunk and the trunk itself which makes 11.5m. How wide is this block? How close is the olive tree? How much extra will an "s" bend driveway cost?

So lets weigh up the options shall we?

Option 1. Change the garage position on the plans prior to building. Worst case scenario is the HO gets slugged $100 for a plan change. This option is assuming the tree stays and if the tree does stay this option is exhausted anyhow.

Option 2. Use the Ekka plan and wind your driveway around pre-existing council trees at a likely cost of thousands of dollars. At this stage I have options and conceptions/ideas but no solid plans however OOMT is suggesting his versions are my plan. Encroachments into root zones are not a new thing but before plans are cast in stone some work needs to be done.

Option 3. Buy a helicopter. There you go Mr Developer and council this guy could make your 2020 design team, not!

About the only thing you said that was correct was.....

Ekka.
Well here goes the fool again.

So long as you were talking about yourself. Who is the fool now, once again?

YOU​

 

[treeseer]

OMT last time you two spatted you were in the right, but this time you're behind the curve. Installing driveways above rootzones is a simple process and would not be $2k here. Get the book Trees & Development; does your chapter sell it? here's a brief spec; Ekka may have better.

derwoodii we feel your pain re the wrong end of the dog but like it or not it is on us to make it hunt without getting browned ourselves.
at any rate the yellow line could be redrawn closer to the tree if need be.

APPENDIX I: GUIDELINES FOR DRIVEWAY INSTALLATION

PART I—PRODUCTS

A. MATERIALS
1. The Structural Soil Mix shall be 80% pre-mixed blend of ¾ inch graded STALITE expanded slate lightweight aggregate and 20% approved sandy loam. This pre-mixed material is supplied locally by Triangle Landscape Supplies from three different locations.

PART II—EXECUTION

A. PREPARATION
1. The broken driveway pieces shall be removed carefully, starting at the Kalkhrust property and ending at the sidewalk. The gravel substrate shall be removed by hand and blown off the roots with air, to avoid further damage.
2. The roots underneath shall be inspected for damage done when the driveway broke, and any damage treated as in Recommendation 1.
B. PLACING STRUCTURAL SOIL MIX BY PAVING CONTRACTOR
1. The fill shall be place in a uniform lift that is 8” above the roots closest to the tree trunk and tapering toward the ends.
2. Use of vibratory plate compacting machine or vibratory roller is recommended.
3. Construction equipment, other than compacting equipment, shall not operate on the exposed structural soil mix.
ABOVE THE SUBSTRATE
1. Geotextile fabric shall be spread to avoid mixing of the substrate with the concrete. WWF4X4-W6.5X6.5 wire mesh shall be laid on top for added strength and flexibility.
2. A 6” concrete pad shall then be poured. The forms on the sides should be secured with stakes or pins that do not damage the roots. The use of smaller panels with expansion joints should be considered.

These specifications are adapted from examples in the book Reducing Infrastructure Damage by Tree Roots: A Compendium of Strategies. I am providing Mr. Best with a copy of this book and a copy of Trees and Development for his reference. Alterations to these specifications may be made only in consultation with Mr. Best or a pavement contractor that he assigns.

 

[Ekka]

OMT last time you two spatted you were in the right

Now I wonder what "spat" you refer to?

The last one I recall was the AQF system in here in Australia that likely you know know very little about, and he was way wrong in that one.

But thanks for helping out sorting some crud from clay with the rest of his disabilities/ignorance.

We dont have a soil profile yet either, ever tried compacting sand?

How deep is the root zone and what is the root density? No facts just OOMT pulling his pud.

 

[outofmytree]

OMT last time you two spatted you were in the right, but this time you're behind the curve. Installing driveways above rootzones is a simple process and would not be $2k here. Get the book Trees & Development; does your chapter sell it? here's a brief spec; Ekka may have better.

derwoodii we feel your pain re the wrong end of the dog but like it or not it is on us to make it hunt without getting browned ourselves.
at any rate the yellow line could be redrawn closer to the tree if need be.

APPENDIX I: GUIDELINES FOR DRIVEWAY INSTALLATION

PART I—PRODUCTS

A. MATERIALS
1. The Structural Soil Mix shall be 80% pre-mixed blend of ¾ inch graded STALITE expanded slate lightweight aggregate and 20% approved sandy loam. This pre-mixed material is supplied locally by Triangle Landscape Supplies from three different locations.

PART II—EXECUTION

A. PREPARATION
1. The broken driveway pieces shall be removed carefully, starting at the Kalkhrust property and ending at the sidewalk. The gravel substrate shall be removed by hand and blown off the roots with air, to avoid further damage.
2. The roots underneath shall be inspected for damage done when the driveway broke, and any damage treated as in Recommendation 1.
B. PLACING STRUCTURAL SOIL MIX BY PAVING CONTRACTOR
1. The fill shall be place in a uniform lift that is 8” above the roots closest to the tree trunk and tapering toward the ends.
2. Use of vibratory plate compacting machine or vibratory roller is recommended.
3. Construction equipment, other than compacting equipment, shall not operate on the exposed structural soil mix.
ABOVE THE SUBSTRATE
1. Geotextile fabric shall be spread to avoid mixing of the substrate with the concrete. WWF4X4-W6.5X6.5 wire mesh shall be laid on top for added strength and flexibility.
2. A 6” concrete pad shall then be poured. The forms on the sides should be secured with stakes or pins that do not damage the roots. The use of smaller panels with expansion joints should be considered.

These specifications are adapted from examples in the book Reducing Infrastructure Damage by Tree Roots: A Compendium of Strategies. I am providing Mr. Best with a copy of this book and a copy of Trees and Development for his reference. Alterations to these specifications may be made only in consultation with Mr. Best or a pavement contractor that he assigns.

Great information Guy. Thanks for book suggestion. I will put it on my Christmas wish list where the wife and kids can see it.... You never know your luck!

I have some experience with house construction in Australia and the contracts that go with it. Any alteration to plans post signing the documents is at the HO's expense. The type of preparation you suggest above is quite likely to exceed two thousand in extra costs to the HO over here. Which is not to say that it cannot or should not be done, but rather that, as is often the case, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Or in this case as much as a thousand pounds. Sterling that is.

 

[Ekka]

The type of preparation you suggest above is quite likely to exceed two thousand in extra costs to the HO over here. Which is not to say that it cannot or should not be done, but rather that, as is often the case, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Or in this case as much as a thousand pounds. Sterling that is.

And it's also preparation that was outside of your narrow avenue of thought, totally optioned out of existing.

What others are you optioning out due to your ignorance? :monkey:

 

[outofmytree]

sadly once again I need to no only inform but defend myself of an ignorants attacks.

You mean these sort of ignorant attacks?

the rest of his disabilities/ignorance

interesting to see your ignorant brain at work

Well here goes the fool again

your tainted little brain comes up with all sorts of rubbish

your linear defecating brain

truly a world class fool

you are so pathetic

If you talk trash princess it always comes back to you. If you can't handle the heat stay out of the kitchen. Here's an idea, take this blokes advice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unkIVvjZc9Y

 

[treeseer]

Maybe you guys could pm all this so you can pull each others' privates in private.

:arg:

 

[EdenT]

Hi TS, cool solution. Didn't know such a thing was available. A couple of things I wanted to ask.

This solution appears to be aimed at replacing a pre-existing driveway but I can see it is readily adaptable to installing a new driveway. However given that it has a 14" profile and will be laid over an existing tree - presumably with roots in the top few inches of soil (as well) won't this lead to a bit of a speed bump? (or am I misinterpreting the instructions?)

Are there any 'lower profile solutions?

Lets get this thread back on track! To the protagonists 'chill out dudes - while it is entertaining in a ren & stimpy kind of way too many good threads are being ruined'.

P.S. By the way OOMT great vid (Date with a Palm, not chopper, though that was pretty funny)

 

[treeseer]

This solution appears to be aimed at replacing a pre-existing driveway but I can see it is readily adaptable to installing a new driveway. However given that it has a 14" profile and will be laid over an existing tree - presumably with roots in the top few inches of soil (as well) won't this lead to a bit of a speed bump? (or am I misinterpreting the instructions?)

Are there any 'lower profile solutions?

Yes it can be done with <14"; that spec was for a sunken driveway.
Yes it can be a bump if it is not spread out a bit, which runs up material cost.
But it's still a sustainable and affordable option for a valuable tree. The issue on this site is the sidewalk, which would also have to be ramped to avoid tripping hazard.

 

[EdenT]

Yes it can be done with <14"; that spec was for a sunken driveway.
Yes it can be a bump if it is not spread out a bit, which runs up material cost.
But it's still a sustainable and affordable option for a valuable tree. The issue on this site is the sidewalk, which would also have to be ramped to avoid tripping hazard.

I don't know TS. If as I suspect this house was built to an 'off-the-shelf' plan there is probably very little money left in the kitty to protect a tree that no-one thought about in the first place. (and don't worry, I consider this vile too.) Given the tree's location and the need for stumpgrinding I would guesstimate that it would cost about $500 for a proffessional tree crew to remove it. I would guesstimate (though I have no real idea) that it would cost about $4000 to install a traditional driveway. (Please feel free to correct me). What do you estimate the cost of the alternative driveway with appropriatte footpath modification, keeping in mind that extra approvals would be required?

Does anyone else have any low cost solutions to this problem that will save the tree? Of course the really annoying thing is that given most of the publics perception of trees, the HO will probably want the tree gone so they can reverse their 4WD out to do the shopping and pick up the kids from school.

 

[derwoodii]

ET All your assumption are pretty good cost to remove & drive install and likely future nego on tree. Alternative drive could be laid with rubber matt or bitumen I've even seen done in timber but early days here.
Its the lands grade & storm pit & cover unseen in picture that controls the diversion and the HO likely resentment to a twist n turn car park.
It may take a while, I let all know I'm hoping for the best but jaded by to many fails.
Yet today came across one that was quickly solved by the developer/designer who saw the trees benefits and happy to divert a small section of footpath. hallelujah

 

[treeseer]

Yet today came across one that was quickly solved by the developer/designer who saw the trees benefits and happy to divert a small section of footpath. hallelujah

We take our victories where we can get them.

 

[EdenT]

Yet today came across one that was quickly solved by the developer/designer who saw the trees benefits and happy to divert a small section of footpath. hallelujah

Amen to that!

Thought I would have a look around and came across this site.

http://www.drivewayexpert.co.uk/cellular-paving-systems-driveway.html

The unusual materials section is quite promising.

 

[outofmytree]

Maybe you guys could pm all this so you can pull each others' privates in private.

:arg:

Fair call Guy. Protecting significant trees is more important than scoring points.

Ekka if I hurt your feelings I am deeply sorry.

25 years ago my boss had a driveway made of pavers that sat in his lawn. They resembled a checkerboard with every second square being a hole which allowed the lawn to grow through. I wonder how this would work between major roots to spread the weight.

 

[treeseer]

25 years ago my boss had a driveway made of pavers that sat in his lawn. They resembled a checkerboard with every second square being a hole which allowed the lawn to grow through. I wonder how this would work between major roots to spread the weight.

yes these cast pavers are widely used here, mostly in parking lots.

 

[Ekka]

My comments are in red

You mean these sort of ignorant attacks

They're not ignorant attacks, they're adjectives of your abilities. LOL

If you talk trash princess it always comes back to you.

You'd be a master of that with your brain eh. Full of something other than knowledge and fact.

If you can't handle the heat stay out of the kitchen.

And the kitchen is no place for a boy who cant peel a potato or boil an egg, in other words you have no idea but pass yourself off as having one.

Here's an idea, take this blokes advice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unkIVvjZc9Y

Ekka if I hurt your feelings I am deeply sorry.

Forget feelings, have a look at how ignorant your comments are, then oh, Treeseer has an option that you knew nothing about yet there you were making like you're the expert, and there's still more options not explored. To not know is bad enough, but arrogant and beating people over the head from a position of ignorance is foolish. :monkey:

 

[EdenT]

Hi Ekka, you mention more options?

 

[derwoodii]

Options, PDF plan file is design for pavement vaulted over tree root zone, something another work mate is working on. Please review add your thoughts.
No Fines Concrete is great medium just aggregate (choose your own stone size & colour tint) with the concrete binding dust, but no sand. So very open & porous but still strong to certain traffic (need to avoid abrasive twist eg power steer turning wheels) Have installed many sites over tree roots and new trees plantings with good results. Its very nice to pour a bucket of water onto a concrete surface strong enough for road traffic & watch it run straight though.