Trees holding water
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Boa07
ArboristSite Operative
I know there are as many opinions as stars in the sky about any topic but seriously some reading of what research there is on this particular topic of water in cavities or crotches might help produced informed responses.
The idea of cutting a hole, groove, notch into live tissues to drain out water and in the process damage and expose wood to potential inocculum precisely in the location where you were concerned about such innoculum establishing an infection court is very very bad idea.
As Guy has implied..(along with a good number of others
)
"Hint--there is no answer!"
....the presence of water is not a signficant element in providing advice to the tree owner...unless you live in an area where the insect vectors of disease rely on water for part of their life cycle. (My family lives in such an area)
Perhaps the simplest reference would be Shigo's Modern Arboriculture or New Tree Biology.
The idea of cutting a hole, groove, notch into live tissues to drain out water and in the process damage and expose wood to potential inocculum precisely in the location where you were concerned about such innoculum establishing an infection court is very very bad idea.
As Guy has implied..(along with a good number of others
)"Hint--there is no answer!"
....the presence of water is not a signficant element in providing advice to the tree owner...unless you live in an area where the insect vectors of disease rely on water for part of their life cycle. (My family lives in such an area)
Perhaps the simplest reference would be Shigo's Modern Arboriculture or New Tree Biology.
lostcoastland
ArboristSite Operative
What i'd do is fill the hole with soil and plant another tree in it...blueberries?
Kneejerk Bombas
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I disagree. We see some freezing here in Wisconsin. In all my years of climbing, I have never seen water in a tree freeze and crack a tree, and I've seen a lot of trees and I always stop to inspect cavities, it's part of an arborist's job.
Wood has a high percentage of water in it, ninety something percent, and as such, it already expands and contracts with freezing and thawing, almost as much as water itself.
A cavity forms when there is an injury of some sort, typically a limb dies and falls off. The tree sets up defensive walls around the area, both physical and chemical walls. Alex Shigo dubbed this as CODIT, Compartmentalization Of Decay In Trees.
The wood on the outside of these walls is abandoned, and will often decay away leaving a hole. It has not been shown that the presence of water in holes has any effect on the decay rate of the abandoned wood. Shigo even speculated that it could slow decay.
Filling the hole with foam probably does little or nothing to the decay rate. Wood contains plenty of moisture to support wood decay fungi and other organisms, even if you dry it out for a week, and month, or a year.
Foam will however discourage wildlife, and that is one of the things I like about trees, but to each his own.
Those walls I spoke of are what is important. Don't drill or cut into the area. Once you cut through the CODIT walls, there is little to stop the decay from moving into healthy wood. I repeat, don't cut or drill into an injury.
I will second the recommendation for Shigo's Modern Arboriculture, and New Tree Biology. For a guy like you in the tree service, they are mandatory reading.
lostcoastland
ArboristSite Operative
i still like the idea of planting another tree in there and having a graft after many years..
opcorn:
opcorn:
atrak99
ArboristSite Lurker
Thanks for this reply Kneejerk.
I'm a 20 yr cerified arborist tree surgeon in Akron, OH. I've never read Shigo's Modern Arborculture or New Tree Biology, but I have to now. I appreciate your informed answer, as this has been a question I've had for years.
I first ran into a cavity holding water many years ago in an old, large, maple whose health the client wanted an opinion on. Other than the 14" diameter, 6" deep bowl of water at the first multiple major lead crotch, it was very ok. Recently, a massive 100 plus year old red oak in the client's front yard in Akron had the same thing, and I said I'd look into it. I assumed the water was detrimental to the tissue and that it would slowly rot downwards and attract insects, weakening the branch union, and eventually the very large, 20" lead growing over his house would fail. I was always against filling in a cavity with anything, but speculated perhaps drilling a 1/2" or so drain hole and even tapping in a metal tube through the trunk could drain and dry the cavity and let the walls of the cavity heal over. I see your reference to Shigo's research warns against drilling and cutting, subjecting healthy wood to decay by penetrating CODIT walls.
So the answer is we're to just allow for the collection of water in a cavity, and the tree is protecting itself on it's own. Is this to say that the cavity won't deepen or expand, decay and insect activity won't progress, and a weakening of the branch union won't occur? What do you think?
Thanks Kneejerk
Decay is going to progress no matter what you do. It will follow the "rules of Shigo", it's just some trees are more prone to decay and the "walls" Shigo talks about are more effective in some species than in others. Filling a cavity (cavity not a V crotch) gives the callus something to grow across and eventually close the wound. If the cavity is left hollow the callus will roll over to the inside thus taking longer to close over. You will still have a column of decay inside the tree. Foam is much nicer to the guys chain saw who will eventually have to cut the tree up.
The Singing Arborist
ArboristSite Operative
The last crotch cavity I inspected was in a gigantic siberian elm. Two codominant stems came to a crotch at about 10 ft up. It was filled with sticks, rotten leaves, soil, and flavored with slime flux. The smell coming off was amazing...the kind of smell you'd expect from crotches and cavities. The idea of pitching water out of a cavity with a tea cup after a rain storm is comical to me in many ways.
I agree with others in that there isn't much to be done to stop the march of decay. Tactfully trim the trees to lighten the forces on the decaying areas. Fill with foam if you need to keep vermin out.
I agree with others in that there isn't much to be done to stop the march of decay. Tactfully trim the trees to lighten the forces on the decaying areas. Fill with foam if you need to keep vermin out.
After reading this post, I spotted this weed growing in the crotch of a red bud in the yard. Pretty cool, don't think I've ever seen this happen before.
