Trenching through oak roots

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Sara

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Good afternoon!

My local water company is planning to dig through the roots of our White Oak and American Elm to bury a water line. Can the trees survive this?

The oak measures 11' 8" around at breast height (4 ft.). The elm measures 7' 2" around.

The proposed ditch is going to be dug within the drip lines of the trees, about 10 feet from the trunk of the oak and about 5 feet from the trunk of the elm. The ditch will measure 2 feet wide by 30 inches deep. A back hoe will be used to dig it.

We are in the process of negotiating with the water company and the county (and the developer who wants the water line) about where the line will be buried - can it be buried across the street? - and what method will be used to bury it - can they bore under the trees' roots instead of trenching through them? - but we know that our efforts could fail. Is there any kind of emergency care we can give our trees in the event of a back hoe to the roots? Can they survive?

Losing these venerable trees would devalue our property in countless ways.
We want to do everything we can to save them. Thanks!
 
That's a shocker!

Yes, boring underneath is the prefered method as 90%+ of a trees roots are in the top 1' of soil (where nutrients, water and air is).

Backhoes etc tear roots, very bad for the tree.

A clean neat cut is prefered on the tree side at least.

Is it possible to have a tree service come in and machine cut the roots prior to the water company hacking them? Yes, there is special root cutting machines to do the job.

These are obviously large old trees and the distance from the trunk and method of cutting is going to have a serious negative impact on the trees.

Are the trees protected under any regs?

Also, those measurements you gave for the tree, is that dia or circumference???
 
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Hi, Ekka-

Since I can't get my arms around either tree, I tied some twine to a piece of bark, went around each tree with it, cut the twine, and then measured it. So, I guess that's circumference. (?) The oak's height and crown each span at least 60 ft; the elm is about 45 ft. tall, with a huge crown also. They are beautiful big old trees, and we love them.

No one gave us any advance notice of this project (they just woke me up at the crack of dawn two mornings ago, ready to dig in my front yard - it took some real fast talk to stall them until my husband comes home from sea in three weeks), so I'm just now trying to get a game plan together. "Under the gun" so to speak. Checking in to protective regulations sounds like a good start.

Thanks for the suggestions about the tree service and the importance of clean, neat cuts. I suspect that even if that's done as carefully as possible, the trees are still at risk. And we might not know for a long time how they really fared.

It is indeed a "shocker"!
 
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Sara said:
Since I can't get my arms around either tree, I tied some twine to a piece of bark, went around each tree with it, cut the twine, and then measured it. So, I guess that's circumference. (?)

That's correct. Divide by pi (3.14) to get the diameter.



Sara said:
The oak's height and crown each span at least 60 ft; the elm is about 45 ft. tall, with a huge crown also. They are beautiful big old trees, and we love them.

Wow! They sound like beautiful specimens!


Sara said:
No one gave us any advance notice of this project (they just woke me up at the crack of dawn two mornings ago, ready to dig in my front yard - it took some real fast talk to stall them until my husband comes home from sea in three weeks), so I'm just now trying to get a game plan together. "Under the gun" so to speak. Checking in to protective regulations sounds like a good start.

Thanks for the suggestions about the tree service and the importance of clean, neat cuts. I suspect that even if that's done as carefully as possible, the trees are still at risk. And we might not know for a long time how they really fared.

It is truly a "shocker"!


This sure stinks! :( I wish I had some help I could offer. If you could persuade them to bore it, the trees would likely suffer less harm, but boring is expensive. That's why they trench.

"my husband comes home from sea" Hmmmm. Military man? Ain't gonna be paying for boring on your dime, I suspect, unless he's a flag officer.

BTW, thank him for his service! :)
 
Actually, my husband is a merchant mariner, presently 120 miles offshore in the oil fields of the Gulf of Mexico. His is a difficult, dangerous job, too, so I'll go ahead and pass along your thanks, anyway. ;)

Thanks for your thoughts. Any more are welcome!
 
OK, so the oak is 44.5" dia and the elm is 27.3" dia

Basically a rule of thumb is for every inch of dia there is a foot of radius for roots to be cared for.

Oak is 44' radius and elm is 27' radius, these areas now called CRZ (Critical Root Zone)

The trees are going to lose around 25% to 30% of their roots, hopefully it's not on the up hill side or the windward side!

Anyway, you best prepare them for it now.

What is around the trees at the moment?

I'm suggesting that you dont go fertilizing but you do commence watering a little, get the moisture level a little higher up to a few days before. Water the roots that wont be getting the chop and water out atleast to that CRZ we spoke about earlier.

Fertilizing will encourage the tree to put on growth, leaf growth etc, a well watered fertilized tree puts defence last in it's systematic way of doing things. It will sacrifice it's health (combatting wounds) to put on growth coz it's a prehistoric thing that wants to grow to be dominant and king of the jungle.

Now, I assume the trenching line is clearly marked.

They are going to drive some heavy machinery around. A good layer of mulch helps prevent soil compaction, think about where they are going to drive and mulch that if it's within the CRZ, also this is why you stop watering a few days before so it's not soft and gonna get compacted.

It would be wise to have those roots clean cut prior, the sooner the better.

After the event, a little more watering and it'll be fine.
 
Wouldn't pictures be worth a thousand words? I'm going to take some and upload them this afternooon.

Watering is an excellent suggestion, as we are entering the dry season in these parts.

You mentioned having "those roots clean cut prior, the sooner the better." Could you elaborate on that a little?

Thanks for all the interesting info.
 
If these trees are on your property, you may want to have them appraised so you can tell the utility what you/they will be lo$ing if they die. Appraisals can help greatly in negotiations to bore/tunnel, or move the lines. If the trees are worth, say, $15,000 to your property, you should have their promise to pay you that much if the trees die within 7 years of the cut.

Plus the cost of removal, of course. Also, since the cut is at the street, that increases the chance of the trees falling on you and your home in a storm. They should also be held accountable for this type of damage, to be paid to you or your survivors...

There is a lot you can/must do if this work is going to proceed, mainly the task of improving the function of the uncut roots. Look forward to seeing the pictures.
 
Well, if you cut the roots now they will be "healing" and better adapted to the further disturbence.

A clean cut can result in callus tissue closing the end, the less disturbence during this process the better.

I'm being hyperthetical here, just imagine the roots are cut, the ends exposed, the vascular system has not shut down yet, the digger pulls up something the tree doesn't like, saline soil or lime soil, the concentrated new soil comes into contact with the exposed root ends and the tree takes up the stuff.

Just better if it's done prior, safer.
 
Mr. nonburger, I doubt whether root pruning days or weeks before the trenching will save these trees. Find out their value, and advocate for your right to it.
 







Wow! Took awhile to figure out how to do that. Still not sure I got it right!:dizzy:

Okay, the pictures lost their captions. I'll describe them from top to bottom:

1. We have a swing in our oak!
2. The swing
3. The water line will run up the lefthand side of the road, just to the left of the drainage ditch. The elm is in the left foreground, the oak in the background.
4. The elm
5. The oak
6. The oak
 
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You mean we have rights? ;)

The term "eminent domain" has already been bandied about - by the developer.

The county right-of-way is not dedicated, and we own to the centerline of the road.

Yes, I'd say we have a lot of work to do in the coming weeks on this issue. Is it best to hire an arborist/appraiser to come and actually see the trees, or is this something that could be done over the net?

I can't thank you all enough for your help.
 
Even with "eminent domain" you have to be paid for your loss. Go to www.asca-consultants.org/ to locate a consultant arborist near you. Have him/her appraise the trees and give their opinion as to what the damage will be from the trenching. You are much better off if you are prepared on the front end of the battle.
 
I checked out the ASCA website and located a consulting arborist fairly near me. That'll work!

In the meantime, any further comments or suggestions from you all are most welcome.

Many thanks!

By the way, what does :notrolls2: mean?
 
The pics are a bit small and I cant really make out the drainage ditch. But I assume it's somewhere between the trees and road.

Treeseer, it is better to cut prior to the day if the work is going to proceed dont you think? And the longer that time period the better.

The water company has to put a pipe in, tunneling, vacuum excavation, air excavation etc around the roots and sliding the pipe in is better.

"Dont feed the trolls" ... trolls are people who start a thread or post with the intention of luring "sucking in" in an argument ... usually a falsified or exagerated story with the clear intent of getting some-one worked up. It is also a fishing term where you do the same to a fish by using a lure out the back of a boat going along slowly ... trolling.

By not feeding the trolls means dont particiapte, ignore the provocation, dont take the bait.

Regards
Mr Non-burger
 
Eric, if the work is going to proceed, the trees are dead. Period. Root pruning in advance would be like putting lipstick on a pig, as we might say in the South.:biggrinbounce2:

When you are looking at distances from trunk to ditch, bear in mind that the work will require a construction easement, in which the backhoe drives, etc.

Your ASCA arborist should be qualified to help you.

"Eminent domain" is the battle cry of builders and their minions at City Hall, but their suit to condemn your land and take your trees must be heard by a judge. Go down to town hall and ask to look at the plans. It's your right. Which of your neghbors will be affected? Talk to them, and band together. If they will lose trees, get the arborist in touch with them. I have worked for entire neighborhoods, and working together we have gotten sewer lines moved out of people's yards.

If there is a competent and ethical land-use attorney in your area, consult with them re your rights and your options. I tell clients that with a good consultant, you may not need to fork over 1/3 of your settlement to an attorney. But you may need one in your case. Following is a letter I send to landowners facing condemnation:

The Town of is seeking to take your property for the purpose of . They have offered you a sum for this taking, but you should know that their first offer is often less than the land alone is worth. When other portions of Road were widened, some of the affected landowners took the first offer, but soon regretted that decision.

Landowners who are informed about the value of their trees and landscapes, and the future effects on their property and their quality of life, can advocate for these values. The enclosed material is just a hint of the issues involved, but if you take the time to read it you will get some idea of what you have and what you can do to keep your property values intact.

can inventory the landscape assets on your property, and appraise the dollar value of what will be lost and damaged during the road project. We can also show you ways to lessen the injury to trees that will not be removed, so you will not lose them later. The appraisal can be used in your negotiations with, to receive a more just level of compensation. Please call or email for:


Attorneys can also be of help, but they will charge a high percentage for their efforts. My consulting services cost much less, and may be all you need to reach a fair settlement, with or even without an attorney. I am available to visit your property and answer any questions you may have.
 
Interesting, treeseer, that road widening was the problem folks were facing in your letter. Because, as you can probably surmise, that will be the next challenge we face regarding our trees. Hm... at the end of the day, that developer may finally sell us that adjoining 30 acres.

Oh, you can enlarge the thumbnails by clicking.

I must say, I've found this site very informative, as well as entertaining (what more can you ask?). Never knew tree guys were so funny. Seriously, I got some good laughs from the Jokes and Humor page and, also, from the "MONSTER TREE up for grabs" thread. :laugh: You guys give each other :censored: !
 
Sara said:
... also, from the "MONSTER TREE up for grabs" thread. :laugh: You guys give each other :censored: !


Treeminator, or Treeinovator as he is now known, is widely regarded as a troll. He is NOT considered a "real" arborist by the pros here, thus the heckling he gets. He has posted many business methods that are unethical and tree-cutting methods that are unethical or downright unsafe.

I'm not a tree guy myself, but even I see that a lot of what he says shows a profound depth of ignorance.
 
I think a sense of humor is a good thing, especially when dealing with difficult people or situations. When I said "trees guys are funny", I meant it as a compliment. Perhaps "witty" is more like it . For instance, on the ASCA website, you can click on "ASCA The Expert".

Sorry if I offended....
 

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