What is the real speed penalty with "safety" chain?

[jra1100]

My 2 cents

I also think that barges was just asking for specific information and not general impressions. Wish that I had times and other data for him, I don't, but that won't stop me from giving my 2 cents worth of insight. I have cut wood for over 30 years, with a variety of saws, most not worthy of note. I had never heard of or to my knowledge ever cut with safety chain. Because of an unfortunate fire I found myself for the first time in over 30 years without a chainsaw. Money was tight at the time and I got on ebay looking for a bargain I found a refurb Poulan 42cc saw for around 70 bucks. When I got the thing it was just like new, and I thought this would do for now. My first time cutting with it was disgusting. I could have cut the 8 inch walnut limb that had fallen in the yard faster with a butter knife. I ended up borrowing my neighbors Jred 621 to finish the job. I was pissed, but after some reflection I decided it had to be the chain was dull. I got out the files and touched up the chain. No improvment. I ended up buying a Jred 621 on ebay the twin of my neighbors. Then I found AS, and posted my delema about the Poulan. Several members suggested that it might be safety chain. Needless to say I had to ask what the hell is safety chain? After I got the answer I went out to the shop and ground off those silly bar things, and VIOLA, this thing cut like crazy. I have since had my Stihl dealer put a new chain on it, don't know which, but for it's size and power it is a real cutter. I know, it's a POS, but I can't help but like the way the little thing cuts with the NON safety chain. For my money you can put the safety chain where sunshine is a non issue. JR

 

[computeruser]

CU...that video above...outstanding! (I've got a belt sander that could've removed the same amount of wood in less time... )

.

Perhaps we can get together, find a couple small logs and a stopwatch, and shoot some comparison videos - Echo versus sander, circular saw, shop vac, string trimmer...

 

[Philbert]

when I went from RMC3 to RSC on my old MS290, I figured the saw cut between 15-20% faster..it is a marked difference

RMC is semi-chisel, RSC is full chisel - not a fair comparison. Compare RMC3 to RMC, or RSC3 to RSC.

If you spendtime with your bar buried it will suck.

Yep. Reduced kickback chain is not as good for boring or long bar chip clearing.

The name probably lulls some folks into a false sense of security. After all, it is "safe".

As much as the safety glass in your automobile makes you a reckless driver. BTW - It's not 'safety' chain, it's 'reduced kickback' chain.

Besides the boring cuts suffering, safety chain is more massive too with all the extra "shark fins", bumper links, etc. It is effectively taking hp off your saw,

? Is your saw that finely tuned? This reminds me of the bicycle riders who pay hundreds of dollars to reduce a few grams off of their pedals, when they could stand to lose about 15 pounds off of their midsection.

I need a new chain of each type, in order to make it fair... OK, when I need a new chain, I'll buy one of each type...

This would be the only fair way to compare them, per your original question.

EDIT: Videos! Safety chain:Not safety chain:

I think the 'belt sander' comment covers these pretty well.

Safety chain is probably 20 to 30% slower in the cut than full chisel...

How about full chisel reduced kickback chain, such as RSC3?

Safety chains are for candy britches.

I cut wood with my saw. Would probably use scissors for britches.

After using both types of chain he threw the guard link in the bin, ran it over with his tractor, doused it in petrol and then caught it alight. He reckons it cut that poorly that he never wants to see it again. Just a thought...

Sounds like a reasonable fellow doing objective, dispassionate research. BTW - Did he run over it while it was still in the bin?

noticed the freshly sharpened chain was throwing very pathetic looking chips and a lot of dust.

The low kickback features (bumper tie straps and drive links, depth gauge design) have nothing to do with throwing dust. Sharpening and depth gauge maintenance do.

Safety chain just doesn't cut it when you find a nice 24" fir, and only have an 18" bar (at least not the oregon 3/8 LP stuff that I had). It's as bad as having that little doo-hicky that echo (or homelite) puts at the end of the bar to protect you!

If you are bore cutting with that doo-hickey on the end of your bar, that is really impressive. The low kickback features would only really slow you down when cutting in the direction of the tip. Sounds like you could use a larger saw - might run across a 36 inch tree someday.

. .I just figure my non safety chain cuts considerably faster than safety chain which also tells me less wear is being put on my saw as well.

??? Do you get better milage in your car by driving faster so that you get there sooner?

As for safety chain the only thing I use it on is a electric chainsaw to cut up pallets. Since the chain is not as aggressive and the electric saw turns so slow if you hit a nail it does little damage to the chain.

??? You must be using carbide safety chain - when I hit a nail, the edges on my cutters dull. BTW - I have 3 electric chain saws - read the warnings on all the chap labels about how they probably won't protect you if you are cutting with an electric saw because the slow moving cutters have constant torque that keeps them moving.

My decision has been to use "safety" chain on my small saw that I limb and cut brush with and the yellow on my bucking saw.

This sounds like a reasonable, personal decision based on your experience. Chip clearance can be an issue with longer bars in big wood. Some people assume that smaller saws are more likely to kickback. Did you see the second season premiere of 'Axe Men' last night? Kicked back with a big saw and went through his jeans and chaps down to the hair on his leg.

If you argue and back up these safety chains you really should sell your saw.

Respectfully, what does this mean? People who use low kickback chains should not use chain saws?

I am willing to bet some money that, in the right conditions, my chains are close to twice as fast as out of the box safety chains.
I think that in severe cutting conditions safety chain would be more dangerous than fast chain.

Why? If one is 'reduced kickback chain', wouldn't the alternative be 'increased kickback chain'?

I sharpen my chains to be very aggressive, I love the self-feeding feeling...and no, I don't let anyone run my saws. Having said that...it was like stepping out of my wife's C6....and taking my 3/4 ton for a spirited drive.

Very honest, personal answer and choice. Some guys like to ride their Harleys full throttle without any leathers or helmet because they like the feeling. They accept the consequences. Doesn't mean that other would slow them down.

My take on what brages is getting at is.......how much slower is safety chain and is the slower cutting worth the trade off for the "added safety"....... what he's not saying, IMO, is that every one of us on AS NEEDS to start using it.

Same way I read it.

Perhaps we can get together, find a couple small logs and a stopwatch, and shoot some comparison videos - Echo versus sander, circular saw, shop vac, string trimmer...

Sounds like fun. I watch them cut steel plate with water jets all of the time. Sometimes with charged gas. We might be surprised if we approached it with an open mind.

Philbert

 

[Haywire Haywood]

Hey Phil, how long did it take you to put that post together and would it have been faster with a non-safety keyboard?

Ian

 

[madrone]

Hey Phil, how long did it take you to put that post together and would it have been faster with a non-safety keyboard?

Ian

Thats Funny!!!! A green label post.....

 

[Martinm210]

There is absolutely no comparison in my experience. I had two safety chains I was trying to wear out and simply got so frustrated with them, I tossed them.

Not exagerating, using safety chains would littlerally take about 3-4 chains for a cord of wood and probably 3-4X longer to cut and wear me out accordingly than a full skip chisel chain. With a full skip chisel I can cut a whole cord on one chain if I'm careful about dirt, etc. and it at least half the time if not faster than safety chains...no exaggeration. The difference was HUGE for me..

IMHO safety chain is made for folks that don't cut firewood regularly or cut anything more than maybe 1/2 cord per year. It's meant for those folks that aren't aware of what to look for or what to watch when cutting. They have a purpose and they are a good thing for the right people.

I can't stand them myself though. I wouldn't even hesitate to just throw one in the trash if it came on a saw I bought. It's like giving a child a butter knife to cut stake with. Sure it's safer for them, but I'm using the big sharp steak knife for my needs.

 

[dadouthat]

I cut firewood for home use and do general stuff like brushing, trail cutting, etc. Used full chisel in the "old" days because that's what was around at the time.

Now I use safety chain on newer saws. It seems fine to me and I don't know quantitatively how much speed difference there is and I am surprised that there appears to be so little data on the question. Anecdotal data really isn't of much use. I don't work all day in the woods so for my firewood cutting the safety chain is fine.

I do bore cuts with safety chain all the time, even with whatever the supplied chain for a little Stihl 180. No problem doing bore cuts. And for those who distain both small saws and safety chain, try a 180 on some several inch stuff. You might be surprised.

At least for my experience, kickback is a lot more likely with full chisel.

 

[SWE#Kipp]

Would you guys consider the 73lpx a safety chain ?

 

[biggen0_8]

This sounds like a reasonable, personal decision based on your experience. Chip clearance can be an issue with longer bars in big wood. Some people assume that smaller saws are more likely to kickback. Did you see the second season premiere of 'Axe Men' last night? Kicked back with a big saw and went through his jeans and chaps down to the hair on his leg.

The reason that I have chosen to use the "safety chain" on my limbing and brush saws is not because those saws are smaller. I understand the physics of "power to weight ratio" but I do it this way because most of the time that I have experienced kickbacks is when doing that kind of work. Also I find that while doing limbing and brush cutting that I am in awkward body positions, which make it more difficult to control a kickback.

 

[DougNH]

Quantitative Evidence

When I bought my 361, the dealer refused to remove the RSC3 "safety chain" that was already mounted, so I used it. After making a few cuts with the RSC3 chain, I became quite bored so I changed it out. It has not been mounted on a saw since.

Timed cuts (3 each chain):
20"-22" diameter Ash (green) stock Stihl MS361, 20" Stihl "Rollomatic E" bar:

brand new RSC3 chain: 30 seconds avg
brand new RSC chain: 23 seconds avg

The RSC throws noticeably bigger chips from green ash wood.

Note: This was done "in the field" under real-world cutting conditions (a felled tree sitting a couple inches off the ground), not with a log suspended nicely in the air at waist height.

Although this is a very limited data set, it does put some numbers on my "seat of the pants" impression that safety chain is slower for bucking logs. I would therefore conclude that

A) Stihl "safety" chain is indeed slower than their "non-safety" chain

B) I am an adult living in the USA, therefore I am free to choose which chain I use, and I choose "non-safety" chain for all my saws. I don't feel "less safe" because less time in a cut seems "safer" to me than more time in a cut.

If I were to loan out a saw (not likely), I would probably give out my John Deere CS56 with the original bar and chain. This bar has a tip guard bolted to it and the chain is a low-kickback variety. Which brings up the point that if I am worried about liability, I will force the user to have a low-kickback setup. However, for my own use, I want faster cutting and will use whatever chain I think is fastest.

If the CPSC or some other government agency were to outlaw standard "non-safety" chain, I would probably buy about 10 rolls of the good stuff.

 

[brages]

Timed cuts (3 each chain):
20"-22" diameter Ash (green) stock Stihl MS361, 20" Stihl "Rollomatic E" bar:

brand new RSC3 chain: 30 seconds avg
brand new RSC chain: 23 seconds avg

Sounds like a pretty big difference.

I was thinking about this topic last night... you know, I've got several PM1 chains... I could just do a timed cut with one, then remove all the tie strap bumpers and take another timed cut. That way you would know that everything is the same, just that the kickback-reducing features have been removed.

 

[Friggs]

Safety Chain and removing the safety link

I noticed that jra1100 mentioned in post #61 that he grinded down the safety links and it cuts better.

I was given two safety chains for my 038 and tried them a couple of times and was not to impressed with it's performance. I guess I could grind down the safety links and see what happens to the performance.

Has anyone tried this, pros & cons ??

Frank

 

[Raymond]

I noticed that jra1100 mentioned in post #61 that he grinded down the safety links and it cuts better.

I was given two safety chains for my 038 and tried them a couple of times and was not to impressed with it's performance. I guess I could grind down the safety links and see what happens to the performance.

Has anyone tried this, pros & cons ??

Frank

Cut and dry Frank. Go do it and come back and tell us what you think.
Take the chain off right? So you can fold the chain, keeping the other parts of it from getting damaged by the grinder. Don't have to go all the way down, just enough so it is plenty below the tooth.
Welcome to a mans world Frank...LL

 

[Raymond]

HUH...Frank you do know which ones to grind down don't you?

Gotta get..gotta good little job to do, on a late start.

 

[wood4heat]

I thought I read somewhere (would've been here on AS) that safety chain was good for dirty would. Said it would stay sharp longer.

 

[madrone]

I noticed that jra1100 mentioned in post #61 that he grinded down the safety links and it cuts better.
I was given two safety chains for my 038 and tried them a couple of times and was not to impressed with it's performance. I guess I could grind down the safety links and see what happens to the performance.

Has anyone tried this, pros & cons ??

Frank

I've done this on a bunch of safety chains that I've found in pawn shops or on saws I buy to fix and sell. It takes a while on the grinder but once you have the safety humps off, the chain cuts like normal.

 

[jra1100]

More 2cents

I guess I should expand on my safety chain post a bit for the benefit of those who are interested. When I found out, thanks to AS members, that I had safety chain I just ground off the bars or whatever they are called. Now before I did that this saw just wouldn't cut anything. I mean it was pitiful, I took about a 10 minutes to cut a branch no bigger than 8 inches in diameter. It was just plain ridiculous. I just quit using it and got the neighbors 621, and it zipped right through the branch, so it wasn't a case of tough wood. Hand sharpening didn't improve it at all. After I took the bars off, it cut just fine. The difference was day and night. This little Poulan went from a total POS to my favorite limb saw. The new Stihl chain was even better. I know everyone rags on the newer Poulans, but this thing really cuts now that I have gotten rid of the safety chain. I know it won't last like a Stihl or Husky or Jred and others, but without that chitty safety chain it works great. I know this is all empirical data and not scientific data, but trust me I'd NEVER use safety chain again. JR

 

[wood4heat]

I guess I should expand on my safety chain post a bit for the benefit of those who are interested. When I found out, thanks to AS members, that I had safety chain I just ground off the bars or whatever they are called. Now before I did that this saw just wouldn't cut anything. I mean it was pitiful, I took about a 10 minutes to cut a branch no bigger than 8 inches in diameter. It was just plain ridiculous. I just quit using it and got the neighbors 621, and it zipped right through the branch, so it wasn't a case of tough wood. Hand sharpening didn't improve it at all. After I took the bars off, it cut just fine. The difference was day and night. This little Poulan went from a total POS to my favorite limb saw. The new Stihl chain was even better. I know everyone rags on the newer Poulans, but this thing really cuts now that I have gotten rid of the safety chain. I know it won't last like a Stihl or Husky or Jred and others, but without that chitty safety chain it works great. I know this is all empirical data and not scientific data, but trust me I'd NEVER use safety chain again. JR

Sounds to me like your rakers were too high. Are you sure thats not what you ground down?

 

[brages]

Maybe the safety bumpers were sticking out higher than the "rakers"...?

 

[Philbert]

Hey Phil, how long did it take you to put that post together and would it have been faster with a non-safety keyboard? Ian

Was thinking most of it anyway - did not take much longer to cut and paste.

And, BTW, I did not receive any 'kickbacks' from any vendors of 'safety chain'.

But, if any of you guys who would 'rather throw a new safety chain in the trash' have ones in good condition that will fit a MS210, 250, 260 (16" bars), 460 (25"), or 660 (36"), send me a P.M. - I will give you my address and mail you a 501c3 donations recept for your taxes.

(Yes, I did say we run low kickback chain on our 660's)

Philbert