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Jock

ArboristSite Operative
Joined
Sep 6, 2002
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Location
Gods Country..Scotland
Dont know about the U.S. or Canada, but here in the U.K. unless you are commercially involved it appears it might be difficult to survive on residential sales, there's a lot of quality companies around but the trend seems to be more hours less money compared to sales figures from a couple of years ago. We are stumped here guys so suggestions or answers would greatly be appreciated. Jock:confused:
 
Economy's down, people's savings have fallen in value.

More people are haggling prices.

Lotsa startups wh think it is easy money and lowball bids.

Guys with bigger crews are lowballing to keep people working.

Some fo the bigger companies are lowballing pruning when they make spray sales, because they figure they will make it up over time. A buddy of mine lost out on a Diplodiajob on a large Austrian pine. Full sanitation prune and spray. tey dropped the price and added other material in the yard.
 
Originally posted by Jock
Dont know about the U.S. or Canada, but here in the U.K. unless you are commercially involved it appears it might be difficult to survive on residential sales, there's a lot of quality companies around but the trend seems to be more hours less money compared to sales figures from a couple of years ago. We are stumped here guys so suggestions or answers would greatly be appreciated. Jock:confused:

Jock,

I'm glad it's not just me. The only way I can keep a full order book on tree work and hedge trimming is to price low. After overheads, I'm taking home less than the people I employ. I went self employed about 4 years ago, starting with nothing, and I've never made more that £6k in any one year..that pays for rent and food, and that's it. I've always tried to keep abreast of health and safety laws, but I'm afraid I just cannot afford it any more, as things have moved on. I can't afford £500/year bi-annual LOLER inspections, and I can't afford the £1.5k it will probably take to get CS40 and 41 so I can prune and dismantle, and to train my groundsman to CS45 so he can hold the ropes. This is because I am limited in what I can charge, because my competition aren't bothering with all this stuff.

I've heard people from larger companies also say that they just don't bother with domestic stuff any more; homeowners can't/won't pay the extra compared to their local gypsy or cowboy.

The answer is to simply abandon that type of work and move on to something else. Personally, my plans are now to concentrate on "niche" work like managing environmentally sensitive sites such as local authority nature reserves (especially where big machines and their brain dead operators would cause more harm than good), highly specialist sort of work like hedgelaying, and small scale tree planting schemes where quality requirements are high. If you're set on climbing work, the way forward is local authority/utility work, until the bottom drops out of that market. For that, you need to be geared up to the eyeballs and resigned to spending the rest of your life behind a desk keeping on top of all the H&S admin.
 
Yep, it's the economy. Makes me wonder how some guys can turn down a job that involves 'elevating trees'. Oh those poor pitiful trees. How 'bout those poor tree men trying to make a living? If you are able to get a contract with a utility/power company go for it. If you do a good job they will always have a place for you.
 
Our sales are down also.

Economy probably. Have had enough work, but have had to price lower in order to get it. Our work load is down about 50%. We just continue to prod along and try to make due with what we can get. Some contractors are bidding real low just to get the work.

I believe it will get better though perhaps later in the year.
 
The guys I'm working with are not having a problem with work, but the backlog is not there. Usualy bidding is put on the back burner right now, but they are getting to them in a few days as if it were still winter.

Guess the people in Denver-Boulder can say a prayer of thanks for the snow.
 
Talking to som Cali. guys last month I can understand it. W/C at 50% of payroll, you cannot pay people what they are worth.

Which fuels a cycle. Good people don't stay, unskilled people get highered, injuries stay high.
 
What's happening ? you got a bunch of silly wanna be tree men playing on computers trying to post in any or every forum on the web . People aren't low balling , they are working while you are playing on your computers that you probally bought years ago .

Can't even come close to the low ballers , I suggest you take some sales lessons or gain some people skills . Are you really providing tree care or are you just trying to make a buck , I 'm confused by two things here . 1- why are you crying to the web 2- why not just go and work for someone who can obviously sell better than You ....time out please !!!!!
 
One of the problems is that a lot of the low ballers work for cash and pay the uninsured help near nothing. C'est la vie.

How does a person run a 3 man crew on less then 100 per crew hour and treat the people right?
 
Every time I take on a client where one of the "BIG BOYS"has previously been I get the same old thing. " You know monkeypuzzle, I almost fainted when THEY handed me the bill. Oh, and by the way, my mother-in-law wants you to give her a call."

Just last week I lost out on the' takedown only' of a huge dead H20 oak. The tree had CRANE written all over it. I bid 1100$ to just put her on the ground and walk, but lost out to some tree pullers that I have never seen before.

The guys pulled the whole tree over away from the house and crashed every other tree left in the backyard. Knocked down a 20''dbh pecan and skinned all.There are hangers everywhere.

When she explained to me that a crane would not fit,and that she really didn't want to dig up a few perenials I said good luck and hit the road.

I try to be a middle baller:p
 
You can look for an opening, a competitive advantage, something you can do faster/better/cheaper than the hundred other chainsaw guys out there... there's a nitch in every market...
Now that could be in marketting, job specialization, pathology and treatment, add-ons etc..
For example last year I bought an echo 650 backpack blower for $500 and a stihl power broom for $260 (I already had the weed wacker). I AM the only little guy I know of that has them... So my clean-ups are better and faster than theirs... Thats a competitive advantage... I also bought a log dolly which allows me to go where no skid steer has been before... Thats another advantage.. These will only last a little while before others catch on so I Am already looking for my next "gig". I may end up buying a compressor and airspade....
In any case education is a great way to move ahead.... Knowledge is valuable in any indusrty... Lots to learn here and on the net...
 
Hey....Take 3 raps .....preferably around your ear and hopefully distributed by me in person......sorry but you sound like a spoiled p"*ck, who gets beaten up quite often and has to get lippy on his pc to vent his frustrations. It was a genuine post, you sad little termite.
 
If I knew the bid range, and and wanted the work, I could always bid lower than the lowest and figure that being innovative would make up for the lowballing. I quickly discovered that some low bids were simply stupid and couldn't possibly be salvaged without winning the lottery.

I'm sure that this is going on here. A large percentage of low bids are caught in a vicious circle where they don't make money, and maybe even extend those losses into the workers. We'd never see that, but we would feel the pain of "there goes another job."

In the meantime, we might struggle and curse, but there is a built-in correction at work in these circumstances that weeds out the incompetent and the dishonest. That's little comfort when it comes time to pay the bills, but it is available and we should take advantage of it by how we treat--and educate--customers.


It is important to expalin not only the specifics of the job, but to explain yourself and how you conduct your business and your ethics.

People generally understand and respect that discussion, and it builds a trust that should end with a well done job. Referrals grow, built on the networking of people just talking, and one has to consider that new style as no different than a yellow pages listing, smaller spread, certainly, but maybe a lot more dependable for repeat business from different neighbors.


Somebody said, all politics is local, maybe the vein to mine is local too. If you have a passion about your work, it will be felt, and remarked on later to others.

But stupidity is there, not far away handing out low bids that hurt everyone, including the client--who may never know it. Make yourself stand out in contrast to these bozos; be proud of your craft; and learn to talk about it with prospective clients.

Tree work is a solitary activity, even with a crew, so it may seem awkward to get chummy. Advertising and beating the competition happens on many levels, so take some risks and extend yourself as someone with ethics--who happens to have a chainsaw...



Bob Wulkowicz
 
I do arborist work, am a licensed landscaper, and also do design plans. In Portland, Oregon, I am unaware of another company owner doing all those.

That may be why I had a 25% increase last year.

A designer, relying on the "high tech" crowd, took a big hit in business.

Another tree-only man mentioned he was slow.

Oregon has a big influx of Hispanic Labor. Many trees are not being allowed to grow over 15' here, the legal size for needing a license. A very few migrants are getting the license with the Construction Board here in Oregon.

We have the highest unemployment rate in the USA now, at 8%. That's a factor.

Portland has grown by 100% since 1970, but the college enrollment in horticultural programs is almost the same as in 1970. That is real bad.

That's one of the main reasons I lean toward licensing landscape maintenance companies in Oregon - to put them on the same playing field as tree services and landscapers in the state for bond and insurance. Although - and this is my personal feeling - I am not convinced that our landscape testing is not too harsh - like questions on decks, "how many landscapers in Oregon really do deck installation?"

Hey, if work is tuff, go to the movie theatre and laugh off some stress at a comedy. We went to see BRUCE ALMIGHTY today, and we'll give it a "10".
 
I agree with many post hear. (Jp & Jock ). Hear at least in So. Cal. Its all about insurance. Nothing agains landscapers. I dont think there is a one of them paying 50% plus for workers comp. while they are cutting the throats of the real tree men. Alls I have to say is out hear it just is not a trade ANY MORE . Its a buck & or a bean or two.Who would of thought the goverment would kill a trade, of american people doing a legit job.
 
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