why is face only 1/3?

[slowp]

Hope all is well.

I struggle with the issue I quoted. Took me a while to realize that some posters just stir, some don’t care, some are hopelessly hard headed and some are simply overly lubricated at the time, or as Bob pointed out years back, some that are only seeking validation of what they have done or are going to do despite any advice they pretend to seek. Pretty discouraging trend when you want to learn or want to help someone. Right now I have a question about falling dead ash, which in the past I would have asked without hesitation but of late not so sure.

Going to go sit on a stump and watch for a while.

Ron

We have falling ash and smoke--(humor time). I'm going on a bike ride.

Just to note that I have had the cut the back cut first suggested and demonstrated. It was for our small, not leaning maples which, in the words of a logger, "like to sat back." He described it much better than a chart. It works if you are an experienced, professional, production cutter and ready to run like hell. Only one wedge was used. I tried it later on a small tree and was very scared while doing so. The tree "went where it was supposed to go." as we hear all the time on here, but I am not a faller and realized that was probably luck. That was too hard on the nerves. I didn't like it at all.

Now I really am going on a bike ride into the smoke, and falling ash. Much better than the scary task of falling trees. Hope the wind changes here.

 

[rwoods]

Gologit,

Hope you are well as well. I appreciate the compliment. Only a tiny tiny tiny fraction of the felling I do is even close to a personal necessity - in other words I can leave almost any tree for someone else or nature to take down. But I do like to help folks and I enjoy the challenges posed by falling. Until recently, I too wouldn't know an ash if it bit me. Locally we are now awash in dead and dying ash with many folks without the resources to hire someone. Typically I can put them on the ground, but with only a 100 or so ashes under my belt I don't know enough of their characteristics to comfortably attempt to lay a big dead one down gently, if this is even possible, to avoid destroying a driveway or a yard for example. Guess I need to cut a few in the fields and see if I can slow the fall and learn to better judge the brittleness.

Slowp,

Seems you are enjoying your retirement. I always enjoy your posts of your experiences and current activities.

Ron

 

[northmanlogging]

Think I've "talked to an ash" tree before... but only cause I didn't think the neighbors needed to see what I was doing to their rose bushes

we get mountain ash around here, but its more of a bush then a tree.

 

[Philbert]

It was for our small, not leaning maples which, in the words of a logger, "like to sat back."

I was helping a friend thin a bunch of dead / dying balsam in Northern Minnesota a few weeks ago for fire danger. A lot of these were too small to get a wedge in with a conventional back cut. He had a 12 - 14' pole with an iron spike on the end that we used to push the trees over, even if they sat back a little. Worked good for these trees; obviously, not for every situation.

Philbert

 

[rwoods]

Some guys have a lot of experience, but don't express themselves well in these forums. Some guys also have experience with certain types of cutting, and can't understand how that does not apply to other situations. There are guys here whose comments I instinctively trust, and those I ignore. Guys who I don't necessarily agree with, but would cut with, given the opportunity, just to see what I could learn, or to understand them better.

Philbert

If I believe someone knows his or her business I will watch and listen - doesn't matter his political views, beliefs, color of his saw, oil ratio, or if I even like him. In the last 10 years it seems our AS community has more and more put the latter before the former resulting in sound knowledge and wisdom being drowned out or withheld.

Sorry, I forgot I intended to sit on the stump.

Ron

 

[Ted Jenkins]

Hopefully I laid out a chart that is easy to understand and grasp for trees leaning opposite the way of intended fall. For trees leaning near to the direction of intended fall a different approach is needed. Or one could say put my charts in reverse. For high risk jobs there is no substitute for practice or experience. The question concerning 33% of the cut as to the relation of the face cut is variable. Most people that are experienced in the Arbor industry eyeball a 30% cut because that is most often what is needed. If one would cut 50% of a tree trunk it would be considered excessive because the risk factor increases dramatically. If a tag line is needed or wedges then the tree is very vulnerable to many other forces. Or the tree is less safe because there is less holding wood for control. I thought this was obvious, but maybe not or a good rule of thumb is for a face cut to be about 30% which is a compromise for safety and control. Thanks

 

[woodfarmer]

Hope all is well.

I struggle with the issue I quoted. Took me a while to realize that some posters just stir, some don’t care, some are hopelessly hard headed and some are simply overly lubricated at the time, or as Bob pointed out years back, some that are only seeking validation of what they have done or are going to do despite any advice they pretend to seek. Pretty discouraging trend when you want to learn or want to help someone. Right now I have a question about falling dead ash, which in the past I would have asked without hesitation but of late not so sure.

Going to go sit on a stump and watch for a while.

Ron

Common, ask away. I love discussing Ash

 

[rwoods]

Common, ask away. I love discussing Ash

Alright, I have little experience with ash and though likely I have cut some green ones over the years without recognizing it. Now that they are dying, I can easily recognize them and in the last two seasons have cut around 100 dead or dying ones. Most have been in clusters along creeks with the only falling challenges being fences and creeks. The dead ones seem to be real brittle. Here in town, I am presented with buildings, driveways, nice lawns and other high dollar targets. Lately I have been contemplating falling a particular 2 to 2 1/2 foot dead for a year ash, but it will fall on an asphalt driveway and a nice lawn both of which will be damaged in a typical wham bam fall. I was pondering whether a long block face and a thick hinge (with possibly a backside vertical cut to encourage flexing) would allow a slow controlled fall, but I am unsure whether dead ash has enough strength and elasticity for the hinge to function the way I want it to function.

Ron

 

[Oliver Durand]

[, but I am unsure whether dead ash has enough strength and elasticity for the hinge to function the way I want it to function.

Ron
[/QUOTE]
It doesn't have much strength, and it may pop and go where it darn well pleases. The Foresters use the word "brashy" to describe it. BE CAREFUL!!!!

 

[rwoods]

I am not too concerned with the direction on this one just the speed of the fall as I am trying to minimize both impact damage and inflight breakage of the top and/or limbs. Any thoughts on how to achieve a slow fall, if even possible? I don't climb; even if I did, I wouldn't climb a dead ash for love or money.

Not to worry, if there is no reasonable chance of slowing the fall, I will walk away and leave it to nature or someone else though it bugs me that it is daily getting more dangerous to the unsuspecting.

Ron

 

[woodfarmer]

Buy some sheets of 3/4 plywood to put down and drop it

 

[Spottedgum]

The recipe for 1/3 cut is a good start point for beginners, but here in Australia, you approach every tree differently based on lean, wind, branch weighting, tree species and condition (live, dead, dry rot, termite, hollows, lightning scars)

While acacias, turpentine and spotted gum will hinge really well with a 5% hinge, salmon, brittle and scribbly gums can go "bang" with >50% hinge.

Dry rot and termite in the heart mean you might be dealing with just a 2 inch shell surrounding 12 - 18 inches of sloppy mud/pulp. (bloodwoods, blackbutt)

Sometimes the lean is 90 deg to the side of the fall direction, so you bias the hinge to be thicker on the tension side or it will crack and fall sideways.

Sometimes I'll "long hinge" a fall by rip cutting a a fall plank with a fall face up to 12 inches high and multiple fall cuts at the back (usually with a winch fall line)
When the fall direction is against the natural fall of the tree, and damage will result if it goes wrong, a winch line (and axis tether if needed ) and a thicker hinge is worth using a rope pole or doing scamper 5m up to attach a rigging point.
I've safely felled uprooted trees overhanging houses against 30deg leans and 30 knott winds. Proper long hinge technique is important as well as winch and tether lines. If you're asking a tree trunk to hinge back 30 deg to straight, and a further 10 deg to fall, it will snap without long hinging or multiple narrow fall wedge hinging.
Sometimes cutting a 60% face wedge can shift the centre of balance toward the side you want - but you want to be sure you know how tensile and flexible the species of timber is, and have enough room to wedge the fall cut behind your saw as you cut so it doesn't backfall.

Always watch the gap in your cut - face or fall, because a tree can have spiral grain, or grain tension, that will close up the gap as the saw cut changes the balance of tension in the trunk. Your saw cut gap will visibly change before the saw binds - and also tell you which way the tree wants to move.

You will feel, smell and hear when you are cutting dry rot, wet rot or termite. Stop and re-assess the fall.

 

[sean donato]

I am not too concerned with the direction on this one just the speed of the fall as I am trying to minimize both impact damage and inflight breakage of the top and/or limbs. Any thoughts on how to achieve a slow fall, if even possible? I don't climb; even if I did, I wouldn't climb a dead ash for love or money.

Not to worry, if there is no reasonable chance of slowing the fall, I will walk away and leave it to nature or someone else though it bugs me that it is daily getting more dangerous to the unsuspecting.

Ron

We had the ash beetles come through a few years back, had a lot of ash come down past few years. I cant say I've had any the let down slow that were dead. I wont even touch an ash if it's near something that could get damaged. I leave it to the guys with the equipment to handle it properly.

 

[Spottedgum]

Alright, I have little experience with ash and though likely I have cut some green ones over the years without recognizing it. Now that they are dying, I can easily recognize them and in the last two seasons have cut around 100 dead or dying ones. Most have been in clusters along creeks with the only falling challenges being fences and creeks. The dead ones seem to be real brittle. Here in town, I am presented with buildings, driveways, nice lawns and other high dollar targets. Lately I have been contemplating falling a particular 2 to 2 1/2 foot dead for a year ash, but it will fall on an asphalt driveway and a nice lawn both of which will be damaged in a typical wham bam fall. I was pondering whether a long block face and a thick hinge (with possibly a backside vertical cut to encourage flexing) would allow a slow controlled fall, but I am unsure whether dead ash has enough strength and elasticity for the hinge to function the way I want it to function.

Ron

The long hinge sounds like a good idea if it's going to "pop".
Not familiar with ash, but similar situations over concrete. Normally I would top lop the tree and cover driveway with branches from the top lop. On Eucalypts the branches leave the trunk at under 45deg from vertical, so when these fall on the layer of branches across the concrete they act as a crosswork cushion.
With brittle limbs it's best to remove all limbs as close to the trunk as possible before felling, and keep the branch "mat" on the concrete as thick as possible. Otherwise when the trunk hits the ground the branches snap off away from the trunk and the jagged stubs hit the concrete at full force through the branch "mat"

 

[rwoods]

Thanks for all of the ash falling comments. This is charity work, I will probably just pass unless the PO wants to give a waiver of liability. Ron

 

[Woodanhor]

[, but I am unsure whether dead ash has enough strength and elasticity for the hinge to function the way I want it to function.

Ron

It doesn't have much strength, and it may pop and go where it darn well pleases. The Foresters use the word "brashy" to describe it. BE CAREFUL!!!!
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for all of the ash falling comments. This is charity work, I will probably just pass unless the PO wants to give a waiver of liability. Ron

Im not a feller but the ash borer has been here at least 10 years
As time gos on the standing dead trees become more brittle and in a slight wind the top branches start falling off which draws the property owners attention at that point the tree is a giant widow maker waiting to happen

They also are prone to hollow trunks

My friend took a hazardous ash down that the first 20 feet were hollow it was not reachable with a bucket

My friend that climbs said they are not climbing any ash anymore its too risky

Anybody cutting ash should be careful of falling branches and barber chairs

 

[Westboastfaller]

What about Canada? Do they use metric fractions? Anybody from WorkSafeBC in this thread?

Philbert

Haha.."metric fractions"
Worksafe is basically the government insurance company. All their standards are under OHS regulations part 26. They are the minimum standards.
We always have to adhere to the highest standard.

Undercut really goes on percentage.
They want them between 28 - 43%
OR, 23 - 28% on a wedge tree for an acceptable standard.
In gas & oil industry they will measure stump Dia and calculate U/C percentage then measure the removed material to make sure the opening is adequate for the cut used.
Swanson, Birbsmouth & Conventional are all 1:1 ratio opening & Humboldt is .5:1 (6/12 pitch) btw, the Humboldt opening given is not nearly enough on certain hardwood species outside BC. such as Ash. The cuts will close and barber chair
They want to see 3 good stumps out of every 4 but don't want to see consistent issues.
Now production falling on the west coast nobody is going to fail stumps that are cut up to 45%- 50% consistently as you may see with side hill lays with softwood. I personally don't cut like that intentionally to get them to go. The odd few end up sky bound on the hinge where I can't cut them up anymore or I end up nipping the far corner off (fail) getting it to go at times. Generally am not setting wedges but pic the slight lean correctly. More time would be spent cutting larger undercuts and chasing fuel, imo. Just different styles.
If it's down hill Falling then trees will generally go down hill without problems.
They say you can go up to 50% on the broken off stubbies but that doesn't work. You really need get well Passed the COG
Generally large cedar that are 6-7ft in Dia & are snapped off at 10-20ft. I go about 80% and they topple easy.

 

[catbuster]

Ron,

I know it’s been a minute since you asked, but for a period of 2014-2017 I took down near all Ash trees on a just over 1000 acre property the EAB had absolutely decimated.

Some things I found:
-Crowns break out, eyes must be kept up and it’s necessary to know how to get away in a hurry.
-Ash is brittle.
-Dead Ash is even worse.
-Ash likes to chair.
-Dead Ash likes to chair even more.
-Boring may be boring, but man oh man is it useful with these trees.
-Even dead Ash is heavy. Really heavy.
-Dead Ash does not respond well to being pulled or pushed. See above comments about being brittle and tops breaking out.
-Let an arborist service with climbers and a crane handle them close to buildings.

Those are a few of the things I remember. At a few hundred you may have more total than I do, but I hope this helps in some form or another.

 

[rwoods]

catbuster,

Right at a 100 +/-, but most were dying not dead from a prior season. I have cut only a few dead ones. All I have cut were certainly approached with the dangers in mind you described. Tops and limbs behaved exactly as you described in both the dying and the dead. I haven't broken a hinge prematurely (yet); I use a Coo's Bay or bore any with pronounced lean or limb load to avoid chairing. Typically I don't have to steer them much. But I am particularly skar'd of dead ash in general thus my questions about hinge strength, and my comments about climbing.

On the few dead ones I let gravity take care of the fall. I have wedged a few dying ones and pulled maybe two (I can only remember one), but I am not going to pound any dying or dead ash over unless there is no canopy to hit (as you know their tops will snap and fall back towards you) and the tree's overhead is clear for pounding (including enough lean that a broken top or limb will fall away from me). I am not going to pull one unless the limbless portion of the main trunk appears stout and high enough to provide sufficient leverage with a line (and then only if I believe I can cut it to stay standing on the hinge without line tension so hopefully before the line is under tension I can get far enough away for any contingency). The particular ash I had in mind needs neither wedges nor a line to fall in the intended direction, but due to its size and weight its impact can do some serious pavement damage. I am going to pass.

Ron

 

[woodfarmer]

A few pictures of the Ash. I was taken to task for my almost none existent hinges last winter by a couple members, can’t remember who, regardless, I don’t know how much experience they had with Ash.
I am on the throttle chasing the hinge as the tree is going over. I have felled hundreds and haven’t had one chair, maybe I’m lucky idk. That’s just what has worked for me