Wood Splitter Problems... Help!!

[Mike K]

Greetings everyone! I just joined this site after lurking here for a while. I just made my 1st attempt at building a home-made wood splitter and need some help. We built it using a new standard Halex 2 stage 11 gpm pump and a prince 2 way 2750 max psi valve and an older 4 inch (I think) 32" stroke double-acting cylinder that came off of a trash compactor. For power we mated a used B&S 14 horsepower I/C OHV vertical shaft engine off of an older lawn tractor that is electric start. We also have a 10 gallon reserve tank for fluid. It's a Heavyduty beast and the motor runs great but it does not seem to have any splitting power. We have tried it with some success on smaller 10-12" dia logs but it just stops and sits there whining on anything bigger.... Any sugguestions on what might be wrong? It seems like the pump may not be shifting into the 2nd stage? I'm not an expert on Hydraulics so I need some help...
Mike K

 

[mga]

how old is that cylinder? if it's old and very used, the internal seals could be worn and leaking. when under pressure, the oil will just seep around them and not push the piston.

if the pump isn't 'sensing" any high pressure, it may not have a reason to kick into second stage.

i have a two stage pump and i can tell when the second stage kicks in on heavy pieces.

 

[Mike K]

I'm not sure how old the cylinder is, but it looks like it's seen it's fair share of use. The front seals on the cylinder look pretty good, they are not seeping. If I take it apart and find that they are bad, is there a good source for replacements somewhere? If I put a tee and pressure gauge in the system how much pressure should I be looking for? I'm assuming that it should go in the system right in front of the cylinder inlet, correct?

Thanks for helping!

Mike K.

 

[CaseyForrest]

It could also be your relief valve bypassing at to low of a pressure. You can stick a gauge where Tree mentioned, or anywhere between the pump and the valve. Putting it where Tree mentioned will give you only pushing pressure. If you put it between the pump and the valve, you will know your pressures at any given time.

Generally most store bought splitters have their reliefs set at 2250. My homebuilt splitter is set at 2800, but I'm also using a 3000psi cylinder. Not all cylinders are rated for 3000, most are only 2500. Just keep that in mind.

 

[mga]

it's not the front seals. there is a piston inside....it should have two sets of cast iron bands on it...or something similar. this is where it could be leaking under force.

not to make fun of anything, but here's a link to show you the piston inside the cylinder....

http://science.howstuffworks.com/hydraulic2.htm

and, since you're building one, here's a nice link to give you a general idea of how much force you might be pushing:

http://www.baumhydraulics.com/calculators.htm

 

[Jwoods]

Welcome Mike K:

Inserting a gauge into your system is the best way to diagnose the problem.

Seals are generally available, and I will offer assistance in helping you find replacements.

Joe

 

[jags]

I would definitely use a guage to test the pressure going into the ram. If this is reading the correct pressure (whatever your relief valve is supposed to be set at) then it is probably the piston that is the problem (internally bypassing the seals as mentioned before). I doubt that it is a problem with the second stage of your pump, because even if it doesn't kick down into the second stage, it will either continue to build pressure or kill your engine, which ever comes first. That is of course unless you have a SERIOUS problem with the pump that usually only comes when they are totally wore out. My guess: check the ram first (with guage) If that ain't it, and your not getting the proper pressure, check your pressure relief.

 

[Mike K]

Thanks for all the great advice. Here is my current update. I took the Cylinder apart this morning. It came apart fairly easy. The two internal seals where trashed. They are funky looking seals that have O-rings embedded in them. One looked pretty worn and the second seal had a split in it and was clearly leaking. The next big issue is finding the replacment seals. I live in central NY, and tomorrow I'm going to take a short trip to Sayre PA where there is a Hydraulic repair business. Hopefully, they will have what I need or at least be able to order some. oddly, I found only limited markings on the Cylinder. Nothing on the tube, but some casting marks on the rear tang(PM235 and 1B 5) There was also an emblem, a triangle with an H. but that was it. I also measured the ram and inner tube diameter and they were 2.5 and 3.5 inches respectively. Hopely replacing the seals will help increase splitting presure enough to get some of my larger wood split up...

Mike K

 

[CaseyForrest]

Dont quote me on this, but those o-rings are pretty generic. Go to your local farm store and see if they have rebuild kits, or if they can get them.

Our local TSC has kits that go from 2" to 5" cylinder bore.

 

[mga]

wait a sec...before you go running off into the woods.....there are several seals on a cylinder. you should have a set on the piston at the end of the rod, and another set in the front where the rod slides in and out so that oil doesn't leak around the rod.

you've gone this far....replace them all.

and, as TreeCo stated: take the cylinder with you!!\

also...search on line in the syracuse area for a cylinder rebuild shop...i'm sure there are several....unless penn. is closer for you.(?)

 

[tawilson]

http://www.cylinderservices.net/store.asp?pid=9903&catid=19717
I've ordered from these guys, and was pleased with their service and patience with someone who wasn't real smart about hydraulics. They might be just as close, depending on where CNY is.

 

[infomet]

Ram Rebuild

I'd bet the PM 235 is the 2350 pressure rating.
I'd also bet it will be harder to get the clevis off the end of the rod than it was to get the piston out.
If you do it, be real careful not to scratch the rod.
I really don't now how you hold the rod/piston to unscrew the clevis, so please tell us.

 

[northernmover]

I'm not sure where in Central NY you are.....Grant Street Repairs in Cortland, or Nu-Way Hydraulics's in East Syracuse may be able to look at this for you. Most areas have at least one shop that can handle this.

 

[Jwoods]

Bore diameter:
Seal groove diameter:
Seal Groove width:

Those three measurements are what is necessary to determine the size of the replacement seals.

If the guys at the shop don't know, post the measurements here and we'll find the replacments.

Joe

 

[Mike K]

Hey Guys! Well, here is the latest update. I took my piston to Sayre PA. and they matched up my seals with no problems. I bought 4 seals, two replacments and two spares for the cylinder for a total price of 24.00. I installed the new seals without a hitch put everything back together and it still does the same thing, splits small (< 12" wood) with no problems but bigger green stuff stops it dead and squealing in it's tracks. Very frustrating!

What should I check next Valve relief settings?

Two things I am wondering about. Frist if I have the A port and B port on the valve hooked up in reverse to the cylinders ports will that make a difference in pressure?

My second thought is, do you thing the 14 hp Briggs engine may be turning to slow of an rpm level so the pump is not producing enough pressure? I tried to find specs on the engine to see what rpms it turns at but can't find any info about it on the web.

The only other thing I can think of is that we brazed a smaller fitting on the feed line to the pump (Line from the tank to the pump) which reduced the size of the feed line by a small amount. Would this make a enought of a difference to screw up the pumps pressure?

I have not put a pressure gauge in the line yet, can anyone recommend one? Also I have a slow drip on my Pump (Haldex 11GPM unit) where the press-on intake pipe connects. It is very loose fitting, I can slide the intake pipe on and off with my bare hands. Is there some sort of sealant I should use to seal this better? Is there a recommended fitting sealer I shoud be using on all of the fittings?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts, advice and help,

Mike K

 

[mga]

Hey Guys! Well, here is the latest update. I took my piston to Sayre PA. and they matched up my seals with no problems. I bought 4 seals, two replacments and two spares for the cylinder for a total price of 24.00. I installed the new seals without a hitch put everything back together and it still does the same thing, splits small (< 12" wood) with no problems but bigger green stuff stops it dead and squealing in it's tracks. Very frustrating!

What should I check next Valve relief settings?

Two things I am wondering about. Frist if I have the A port and B port on the valve hooked up in reverse to the cylinders ports will that make a difference in pressure?

My second thought is, do you thing the 14 hp Briggs engine may be turning to slow of an rpm level so the pump is not producing enough pressure? I tried to find specs on the engine to see what rpms it turns at but can't find any info about it on the web.

The only other thing I can think of is that we brazed a smaller fitting on the feed line to the pump (Line from the tank to the pump) which reduced the size of the feed line by a small amount. Would this make a enought of a difference to screw up the pumps pressure?

I have not put a pressure gauge in the line yet, can anyone recommend one? Also I have a slow drip on my Pump (Haldex 11GPM unit) where the press-on intake pipe connects. It is very loose fitting, I can slide the intake pipe on and off with my bare hands. Is there some sort of sealant I should use to seal this better? Is there a recommended fitting sealer I shoud be using on all of the fittings?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts, advice and help,

Mike K

1. you should always have as large of a "feed" line to the pump as possible. you should not have any leaks on the suction side of the pump!! correct this with a simple radiator hose clamp.

2. the engine should be suffice for your splitter at full RPM's. i used a 12 HP in the past without problems.

3. use liquid teflon sealer on all fittings.

4. there is another thread here about having only 1300 psi and doing the same thing...check it out. before you make adjustments, be sure to understand what you're doing there!! find a 3000 psi gage first!! i've been looking on ebay...no luck yet.

5. if you had the ports reversed you would know it when you pushed or pulled the handle.

 

[Mike K]

MGA,
Thanks for the fast reply! After talking with a couple of friends I'm sure the engine has enough rpms. I'm pretty sure the ports are reversed, when I push the valve lever in the direction I want to move the cylinder the cylinder moves in the reverse direction. I would think that it would not reduce pressure by having the ports reversed but I'm not sure?? As far as the intake port on the haldex pump I think you misunderstood me, I mean't the metal intake pipe is loose. I can pull the metal intake pipe completely out of the pump's housing. I do have a hose clamp on the pipe-to-hose connection, and it's sealed tightly. Is it possible that I'm sucking air in through the loose metal pipe which is causing the pump to cavitate?

Mike K.

 

[ray benson]

Here is the prince website. You should be able to find your valve . It gives a pretty good explanation on relief pressure setting and detent settings. With the ports reversed on some valves you would be seeing the 1400 lb factory set detent being reached. A B port connections would have to be reversed.
The intake side of the pump should be about 1" id pipe. You shouldn't be able to pull it out of the pump body. If it is not threaded in then maybe you can braze or tack weld it in place. My pump is mounted with the suction (intake) hose barb down. So it would fall out if it came loose.
http://www.princehyd.com/Default.aspx?tabid=46

 

[dtw902]

Mike
Yes get a good gauge (liquid filled if you can) with a range up to 3000 psi.
Then read this thread. http://new.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=35586
I'm sure you will track down the problem. As far as the pump suction, is it threaded on the suction or is it held into the pump with a flange.
If it is just slid in (not threaded) then it should have a o ring on the pipe
to seal it to the pump housing. I guess the o-ring could be in the pump housing and the pipe slides into the housing.
I would have to look up your pump specs.

 

[mga]

MGA,
Thanks for the fast reply! After talking with a couple of friends I'm sure the engine has enough rpms. I'm pretty sure the ports are reversed, when I push the valve lever in the direction I want to move the cylinder the cylinder moves in the reverse direction. I would think that it would not reduce pressure by having the ports reversed but I'm not sure?? As far as the intake port on the haldex pump I think you misunderstood me, I mean't the metal intake pipe is loose. I can pull the metal intake pipe completely out of the pump's housing. I do have a hose clamp on the pipe-to-hose connection, and it's sealed tightly. Is it possible that I'm sucking air in through the loose metal pipe which is causing the pump to cavitate?

Mike K.

just switch the hoses around on the control valve to solve that problem. your handle direction should be the same as the way the cylinder is traveling: in/out....forward/backward.

as for the pump...get it fixed before trying to fix another problem. one problem contributes to another and each may be related...not to mention ruining your system.

i'm using a 2" hose rated at 600psi to my pump. i didn't want to "hard pipe" this because of vibration. the hose is only about 12" long.

but, you can't have any leaks at the suction end...gotta fix that.

post for us what brand controller you have and what brand pump.