Your Arboriculture: Full or Partial

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Multi Choice - Which services do you offer - substantially?

  • High canopy service with lifts or climbing

    Votes: 33 91.7%
  • Cabling and bracing

    Votes: 21 58.3%
  • Consulting for trees

    Votes: 26 72.2%
  • Pesticide applications

    Votes: 14 38.9%
  • Care of shrubs and vines

    Votes: 24 66.7%
  • Fruit trees

    Votes: 26 72.2%
  • Soil: drainage, ammendments, mulch, etc..

    Votes: 20 55.6%
  • Full landscape consulting

    Votes: 9 25.0%
  • Planting of trees

    Votes: 21 58.3%
  • Modify landscaping around trees and shrubs

    Votes: 12 33.3%

  • Total voters
    36

M.D. Vaden

vadenphotography.com
Joined
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Location
Beaverton, Oregon
In post #330 of this thread here...

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=58635

I asked about what services tree companies or workers offered, or did not offer. After reams of talk about climbing in trees, it was interesting to see that the thread went silent as soon as the question arose about what other arboriculture services are involved.

It can be useful for others to know what we offer or don't offer. Not just the "what" part, but the "why" part.

In my case, one thing I dropped entirely was my pesticide applications and pesticide consultant's license. Ocassionally, I'll review with a college class or something, but in Oregon, pesticide application specialists have started to emerge, focusing on that niche more and more. I find it very convenient to let them handle that niche.

Here's a definition of Arboriculture...

Arboriculture is the selection, planting, care, and removal of individual trees, shrubs, vines, and other perennial woody plants and the study of how they grow and respond to cultural practices and the environment.

Here were a few questions from the other thread...

Do you climb?
Do you include ground level pruning and shrubs?
Do you study the environment: both lawn, small plants and soil?
Do you apply pesticides?
Do you select and plant trees?
Do you consult for trees?
Do you consult for trees in the full landscape?
How limited is your service based on the description above for aboriculture?
With Vines, Shrubs - do you understand the arboriculture needs for them?

Which part do you like working with best?
 
Here were a few questions from the other thread...

Do you climb?
Do you include ground level pruning and shrubs?
Do you study the environment: both lawn, small plants and soil?
Do you apply pesticides?
Do you select and plant trees?
Do you consult for trees?
Do you consult for trees in the full landscape?
How limited is your service based on the description above for aboriculture?
With Vines, Shrubs - do you understand the arboriculture needs for them?

Which part do you like working with best?

Ill go first.

Yes all foreman in the co. climb. Not only pruning but removals and climbing for the crane. lot of the ground hands here are also proficient climbers.

Yes we prune everything from Boxwood, and Privet, to Jap. Maples and fruit trees.

We don't do very much with lawns. We do pay attention and keep up on the latest methods, and problems associated with them. We do study perennials, and of course soil. Soil is such an integral part of trees how could you ignore it?

Yes we apply Pesticides, and herbicides when needed.

It's not a HUGE part of our outfit but we do select and plant plenty of trees throughout the year. We have one of the best nurseries in the North East in our backyard, so we are lucky in that sense.

Yes we have a great reputation, especially with builders. We do a ton of consulting work for new projects to help protect existing trees. We will also consult with our customers on ANY questions they may have, trying to educate as many people as possible about PROPER Arboriculture.

Of course why only focus on trees that are in the lawn area, or the giant shade tree by the road. Those trees up by the house in the new $50K, patio area are just as important.


Vines and shrubs are just as important as trees. As an MCA we were required to know EVERY Vine, Shrub, and Tree that is in our State. To have them on the MCA test tells potential MCA's that its important. It is great when you can go to a property and give advice on everything. Not saying, we only focus on trees, BUT you can give Joe Schmo Landscaping a call.

That what you were looking for?
 
I have a small company, I climb and I have one full time ground worker. I do ground level pruning, I mostly concentrate on the trees, small plants and such I refer to a landscaper in the area who does very nice work. I don't apply pesticides because of the laws/ permits etc, and I don't have extensive knowledge in that area. Also I don't because I stay very busy with my other tree work. I don't select or plant trees because I don't have the equipment to do so, But I will make recommendations as to what trees would be suitable or do well on the site. I often consult as part of my original estimate on how what trees to keep/ remove/ prune and how they will adapt to construction etc. I guess my service is somewhat limited but I like to stay specialized and not be running around doing many different things and having equipment sitting idle for long periods of time. And I do understand the arboriculture needs for shrubs and vines. The parts I like doing the best are pruning big beautiful trees that can really benefit from pruning. Example I pruned about 10 large oaks (16-32" diameter) that had never been pruned before. They were loaded with deadwood and were a mess. After we were done they looked like a million bucks that was rewarding. Also I enjoy challenging removals. Where bucket truck couldn't reach and where you have to rig stuff down and be creative to do a good safe job. We also do stump grinding as part of our tree services. Hope this answers the q's sorry about the long response. Mike
 
I am at a loss to check anything here M.D. I remove, trim and top trees around powerlines. My trade ticket says "utility arborist", I don't see a category for that essential service, one of the most important jobs in the tree industry. Perhaps you could add a category to your poll.
 
I am at a loss to check anything here M.D. I remove, trim and top trees around powerlines. My trade ticket says "utility arborist", I don't see a category for that essential service, one of the most important jobs in the tree industry. Perhaps you could add a category to your poll.
10 options is the poll limit.

But your are doing what I hoped the "other" would do, is just write it down in reply - the unlimited section :)

BostonBull...

"Yes" to your question. Just trying to see what people do or don't, and comments as to why the choice, if helpful.

At least in Oregon, when I read the Yellow Pages 15 years ago for Tree Service, the services listed were basically view clearing, pruning, removals, etc.. But in the past 4 to 8 years or so, I've seen more added in like lot mowing, irrigation, planting or landscaping. So that the advertising is becoming less stereotypical, but just an individual thing. One thing that came to mind, was that maybe those same companies used to offer various services, but didn't mention them in ads, feeling the need to fit an image.

That brings to mind a whole different matter that I'd never thought about before - women arborists. I'm curious about if a woman arborist company owner, would feel the need to use an image of a male climber in an ad? It's just that I've never seen an ad before with other than a male climber with a chainsaw. I wonder how much of a difference it would make to homeonwers and how much they would let the image affect their decision. It really should not matter. But somehow I think it would make a difference to people.
 
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The company I work for does everything, except lawn care and application of pesticides. We are knowledgeable about grasses as trimming or removing a tree can effect the lawn also. We don't apply pesticides as there are experts in the Field who can do that better then us. We do consulting work in all areas of arbor care so were knowledgeable even in things we may not do. We shy away from doing cabling and bracing these days because of the liability. We have lots of heavy equipment and a beast so we do a lot of demo also. I am a crew leader and a C.A and study a lot, my boss and our superintend are experts. We can and do, do it all.
 
I do full landscape but over past year gotten into tree work for a add on service and going after my arborist license. About the only things I don't do is pesticides and irrigation. My neighbor is a salesman for one of the top squirt/fert. companies so I just refer to him and he hands out my business cards. Once I get my license I may drop everything else and just do tree's but I don't know at this point.
 
High canopy service with lifts or climbing
Cabling and bracing
Consulting for trees
Pesticide applications
Care of shrubs and vines
Fruit trees

I checked these in your poll. The answers after Fruit trees on, are all for landscapers. I do not do landscaping but refer landscapers to my customers to take care of these things we do not do. If I started to tell my guys today we are going to do 20 yards of mulch at the Smith residence today, they would start quitting on me. I pay my employees to care for trees and I can not possibly be able to price a job and get the bid anyhow by wheelbarrowing mulch or dirt with my current crews. Lets be realistic here. Unless the tree man is starved for work he is not doing that kind of mindless activity.

I use to own 3 divisions. A nursery, a landscape division, and a tree care division. They were divisions. Each has to be run differently to be effectived unless you are a small operation. Today we only operate in tree care.
 
The answers after Fruit trees on, are all for landscapers. I do not do landscaping but refer landscapers to my customers to take care of these things we do not do. If I started to tell my guys today we are going to do 20 yards of mulch at the Smith residence today, they would start quitting on me. I pay my employees to care for trees and I can not possibly be able to price a job and get the bid anyhow by wheelbarrowing mulch or dirt with my current crews. Lets be realistic here. Unless the tree man is starved for work he is not doing that kind of mindless activity.

I use to own 3 divisions. A nursery, a landscape division, and a tree care division. They were divisions. Each has to be run differently to be effectived unless you are a small operation. Today we only operate in tree care.

I respectfully disagre with this statement. Arborists should manage the soil aorund trees as it has different needs and prescriptions from other landscape areas. There arent too many landscape co's. around here that know how to plant. Too deep and usually have mulch volcanoes knee deep.

Not flaming, just my opinion.
 
Too deep and usually have mulch volcanoes knee deep.

that is absolutely correct. that is why I work closely with only a select few landscapers who are just as educated in landscaping as we are in trees.

Just as one is to select the qualified tree care operation they have to equally scrutinize their landscaper as well. With literally 1,000 of landscapers to chose from believe it or not there are actually some that know their stuff. If a customer comes to me or I see a need for these landscaping concerns by referring to my preferred list it usually develops properly.
 
that is absolutely correct. that is why I work closely with only a select few landscapers who are just as educated in landscaping as we are in trees.

Just as one is to select the qualified tree care operation they have to equally scrutinize their landscaper as well. With literally 1,000 of landscapers to chose from believe it or not there are actually some that know their stuff. If a customer comes to me or I see a need for these landscaping concerns by referring to my preferred list it usually develops properly.

I agree 100%. We routinely refer to a great landscape/nursery co. in our area. We dont plan designs, walk/patios, or other landscape areas. They also get the referral on HUGE planting jobs.
 
To answer one of MD's questions. My wife and I own a tree and landscape business. We both have degrees in horticulture and arboriculture, both are certified arborists, licensed pesticide applicators, and master gardeners. We find that we sell more tree jobs when I give the estimates than when she does. On the other hand, we sell more landscape jobs when she deals with the clients (unless it's along the lines of installing patios or retaining walls). People have the misconception that a woman isn't able to perform these manly duties. Did I mention that my wife has been to ArborMaster, and has been climbing for the last 12 years? I'm going to bet that she's more qualified to be doing tree work than 85% of the people on this site. Climbing big trees doesn't make you an arborist.
 
I agree Dan, well said and nothing against MD, but I think you really have to be in business of tree care to understand how different it needs to be operated when you start working on those large trees you can't reach with the orchard ladder. Certain similarities of knowledge is required to excell at either or(landscaping or tree care) however the operational approach is much different from a business standpoint. It is best not to be a sub to a landscape co. but rather be a referrence... or if you want to do both, run two seperate divisions under one company.
 
but I think you really have to be in business of tree care to understand how different it needs to be operated when you start working on those large trees you can't reach with the orchard ladder.

You mean different, as in if we prune to save the branch collar on a 20 foot tree, that we'd remove the collar in the big tree? :)

Those would be some good points to get the Becoming an Arborist thread rolling again.

But back to the aspects of arboriculture, someone mentioned that planting was for landscapers. I think that planting can easily be arboriculture. And when I listed planting in the poll, size wasn't listed.

Been a while since I opened the ISA study guide, but wasn't tree planting in there?

I'm not saying this to run down M.D. but I have been reading him for some time now....and to me it looks like he is saying he would like to get the big tree work and then supervise and sub it out.....because he has the book knowledge

Actually, if you reread threads like the other one, you will notice reference to the referral link on my home page. I send most of the big tree work to a Certified Arborist who specializes in high climbing.

But... to get this clear. I can easily match your knowledge and your experience. In near 30 years, I've never quit working with big trees or little trees.

Really, what you are saying, is that if I sub-contracted your service, and paid you your regular rate, and let you figure out how to prune most of the big tree your were in, that you would automatically revert to a sub-standard incompetent situation, even though the tree you were in was mainly in your hands.

Think about it. Because when I hire high climbing Certified Arborists, they are basically on their own. If anything, I follow their lead, since I'll take the ropes in hand.


You see, it's not like all I have left for options is buying climbing gear so I can return to climbing in big trees. I can also oversee the management of a university campus - all the trees, all the turf, all the plants, all the pesticide applications: even the greenhouse operation.

I could coordinate or build a country club golf course from scratch. Grading, drainage, irrigation system, drainage. The entire thing minus the clubhouse. Greens, fairways, tees - the whole shot. I'm not sure if I could manage an entire Park Bureau, but definitely a large park, or multiple parks.

So when I hear you talk about a limited portion of tree work like it's some kind of gauge that is supposed to erase the abilities and experience of the heavyweights in the green industry, I have to sort of step back and scratch my head.

Maybe I don't think like you, because I never worked in just one niche of the green industry. The route I took sort of involved covering all the bases all the time.

I guess I hear you as a counterpart to a landscaper, telling some arborists that they don't know how to plant some trees, because they only plant one size. Something like that.
 
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You mean different, as in that if I prune to save the branch collar on a 20 foot tree, that I'd remove the collar in the big tree? :)

Or do you mean that when deadwood is removed from a 100 foot tree, that deadwood should be left in a 30 foot tree because it's different. :)
read my post again.

"Certain similarities of knowledge is required to excell at either or(landscaping or tree care) however the operational approach is much different from a business standpoint."

the difference is in the business not at the task per say
 
I dunno guys, I see no clear division in that list. I checked them all because even though I am first and foremost an arborist, in my mind I am not offering competent and comprehensive tree care without managing the soil and the plant associates. I branched out from "pure" climbing and cutting because I tried to spec or sub other tree care work, but it fell through too often, and the trees I was responsible for paid the price.

I probably could not do mulching etc. so much if I did not have cheap teenage labor though. But still it is arboriculture. Shrubs and vines belong in the arborists' market share, if they have the skill and the sense to grab it.

Personally, I draw the line at cutting the grass. But that's just me.

:givebeer:

O and I do agree with Dan; no one is credibly doing high canopy work if they do not know high canopy work, from experience.

O and clearance, read #1. You're in, brother.
 
Utility tree guys, the most important and essential treeworkers out there, toot, toot, yay, the top ones. Blowing my own horn for once, but can anyone deny it? No power, no A.S. to even talk about it.
 
Personally, I draw the line at cutting the grass. But that's just me.

:givebeer:

That's my cutoff point too, mainly because the migrants infiltrated that aspect and drove the wage too low. So low, that college enrollment for turf management is about 40% lower than it should be for as much as Portland, Oregon, has grown. No money left in the job for education, except in a very few companies. Sure is nice that some outfits still promote the education.
 
read my post again.

"Certain similarities of knowledge is required to excell at either or(landscaping or tree care) however the operational approach is much different from a business standpoint."

the difference is in the business not at the task per say

John, it's under control. I've been in the business a long time - when the jobs are done, the climbing arborists have every dollar they they need, and all the time they need in the tree. I can't recall one time of even suggesting to a Certified Arborist high-climber come down prematurely. And the work is usually completed within 60 minutes of what I estimated.

Had the customer called them first and never known me, those climbers would have done the same trees just as well. In most cases, I just refer the limited big tree work directly to the climbers and let them contract the whole thing.

But if there is other landscaping involved, the customers benefit my having my skills and experience included, so that they are not limited to merely a high-climbing big tree service, but gain the benefits of having every phase of knowledge and experienced.

As I've said before - and it wasn't just joking - when our company is involved, the service and knowledge is 300% of what some climbing service offer. Because our company is involved regularly in all phases.

You know what you make me think of.... You make me think of a hypothetical situation, that a golf course superintendent would try to tell me that I would not know how to manage turf, because I ended my 7 years of country club work (even though turf management is still part of my business). Sure, there's a few new fungicides, and a few new machines, but it's not like the end of the world.

Can you see such a rediculous superintendant believing that since I don't sharpen reels anymore, or core aerate greens, or adjust bed knives, that it would neutralize comprehension of what's going on?

I really wish that some of you climbers had more exposure and experience in the many other phases, so it would be easier to explain.

Some climbers have had extensive multi-faceted experience, but those are not the representative core of climbers. Then others, a significant number of pros, are not so multi-faceted in the green trade, and although they are masters at their niche, it's a bit more like having been developed in a single test tube or beaker.

On the other hand, the few individuals who have been trained across-the-board in a myriad of green trade niches, have experienced a situation comparable to being developed within an entire laboratory. They are reprentative of the entire collection of experiments - truly broad spectrum.
 
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Of the choices offered Id have to say Ive engaged in all of them at one time or another & still do but in a limited manner, the truth is some of what is mentioned in my area has had the infiltration of low bidders take over so I dont get much work in those areas.

I think many have chosen specialty work but will cross over into the other fields only when the pay is commensurate, IMO.



LXT...............
 
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