Your Arboriculture: Full or Partial

[D Mc]

In our particular case, we focus on the climbing jobs as much as possible because that is my specialty. It makes no sense for me to be mowing lawns or digging holes. Our clientele is large enough now that we can start to pick and choose. All things considered we want to expand my energies in what I am good at (and we have a serious lack of capable climbers here).

I understand your concerns, Mario, with the climber who finds a niche and doesn't want to expand his knowledge beyond that point and I don't have an answer for how to correct that. The gaining of knowledge on how everything interrelates is not only fascinating but very useful. Too many people (in all aspects) neglect to do this.

The sad fact is I have seen very few truly talented climbers, so those who do have this special talent should focus on this; much as a skilled heart surgeon should focus on hearts and not be a GP even though that is an important aspect of health care as well.

Bottom line, find what you are good at and spend as much time in that area as you can. This would maximize the efficient useage of time for each individual.

D Mc

 

[M.D. Vaden]

M.D. you are working under a mistaken assumption that we don't understand some of the phases of arboriculture in your poll......and that we need them explained to us! LOL.

.......When we say our tree crews are paid too much to spend time spreading mulch....we are not saying spreading mulch is a bad thing..or that spreading mulch isn't arboriculture.....or that planting trees isn't arboriculture.

This thread and poll reeks of the mistaken assumption that being 'partial' in the arboricultural services our businesses provide equates to us being 'partial' in our understanding of arboriculture when if fact, that is not the case at all.

Treeco..

I said "some"... So I'm neither making assumption, nor mistaken. My comment was not all-inclusive. But I suspect that your attention to what I wrote may not have been all-attentive. That kind of inattention, if you take it up in a tree, can be damaging.

And that's exactly the kind of testing and detail I look for in climbers. Your statement would have disqualified you as an applicant for our company. Had you responded as "some of us" instead of the "we" in your reply, it may have made more sense.

But since I already wrote in one of my recent replies to the effect that some climbers know many phases, your reply amounted to no more than re-writing what I already wrote. But why you attempted to make it look like you said it first, and that I didn't, seems kind of whacky.

My guess is that you don't read my other replies, and proceed partially equipped into the discussion. Not exactly a promotional bell-ringer if you were hoping to try and express some wisdom.

But when you try and tell me what I'd already written, as if I didn't write it and it was like knowledge that was going to die with you, you've got to be kidding yourself if you expect me to heed anything you have to offer. That approach is a fast way to cut-off anything you have to offer.

Maybe maybe some explaining is needed, like how to read what's written.

Most of my reply here is not even for you.

The user stats on AS show that 2/3 of the readers are visitors. Many times like this, I just write to make sure people who are reading will go back and see what I already wrote, so they don't get side-tracked thinking someone like you just introduced something factual for the first time. Although, I don't expect the silent 2/3 to make the same mistake, or miss the same vocabulary that you did.

Often, that's what makes many of the 2/3s want to be silent. They don't want people to respond to what they would write as if it were not written.

 

[woodchux]

How much real climbing experience could you really have if you never even got comfortable enough to trust you gear?

 

[John464]

John, it's under control. I've been in the business a long time .

so have I. Ive also done the landscaping and tasks you speak of. I've raised trees from saplings that I now care for on customer's properties that are 100ft tall. I chose to remove the landscaping services from my business and sell off all of my nursery stock and the land with it Ive been exposed and understand most(will not say all cause always learning) phases or arboriculture. What I am getting from this thread is similar to Treeco's reaction. It is taking somewhat of a shot towards tree care proffesionals.

You say you've been in the business a long time. Which business are you in? landscaping or tree care or both? Do you have 1 or more dedicated tree care crews that specalize 5-6 days a week in high work with either lifts or climbing? How many years have they been with you? Do these same guys come down after the big prune and start shoveling dirt?
How long do you expect them to stay?

The way I look at it is that if you can correctly prune the large tall trees, you can prune the small ones. In reverse the guy who can prune the small tree may not be setup with the staff and equipment necessary for completition of the large tree. He may have the knowledge from the ground on how it's suppose to be done, but if you are not setup within your own business how much control do you really have over a sub? They don't need to pitch mulch, but can, however it's not something I expect an employee to do. There is so much work to be done on trees and woody plants, if you really want to offer additionals services such as the landscaping part of arboriculture you really need a dedicated seperate landscape crew unless you are working by yourself with a helper or two.The employees who like to work on trees do not like to install planting beds or dig and plant bushes all day. Tell us how you do it.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

so have I. Ive also done the landscaping and tasks you speak of. I've raised trees from saplings that I now care for on customer's properties that are 100ft tall.

Good for you.

That's why I posted earlier to the effect that a lot of tree workers are multi-faceted, however I worded it.

Sounds like you have things under the control you need too.

How much real climbing experience could you really have if you never even got comfortable enough to trust you gear?

Never bothered to measure it.

Likewise, I can't tell you how many hours I have on a greensmower, a backhoe, a bucket lift, etc..

How comfortable are you with real horticulture experience? I mean the whole scenario - from turf to trees and roots to shoots. 20 years? 25 years?

How comfortable are you at prescribing fertilizer doses for Agrostis stolonifera? Are you comfortable identifying Lollium perenne?

How many trees and shrubs are you comfortable with for both nomenclature and ID? 400? 500? Maybe 600? Which ones are you comfortable with as far pruning goes, or habitat, etc?

In my case, I've got all the comfort I need to do whatever I need to oversee. Even enough comfort to realize that the questions I just presented to you, are one of the best ways to answer your question.

So let's hear where you are on the overall playing field, so we can determine what kind of information may or may not be useful for your professional development.

It looks like you may be a person who likes questions. If that's the case, I've got lots of questions for you. Answer those, then there's more to follow.

 

[beowulf343]

I've disagreed with you before Vaden and i do again. I much prefer specialization. The company i'm with actually does most of the things on your list and several others that aren't. Do i personally do all these things? Of course not. Each division has its own group of specialists who concentrate on their own speciality. For example, for the last eight years ever since i finished my stint in line clearance, i've been doing nothing but climbing removals usually six days a week. That is a fair amount of experience yet there are still moments i'm surprised or learn new ideas, techniques, reactions, and skills. (or maybe i'm just a slow learner.) And if i'm still learning and improving after thousands of hours in one specific discipline, how could i be considered an expert in something i may only do an hour or two a week? I mow my lawn once a week-can i be considered a landscaper? If i have a question on how a removal effects the surrounding lawn, i'll gladly go and ask one of the landscape guys for their advice. But i don't tell them how to do their job and they don't tell me how to do mine. We work better together-some of our guys have decades of experience in their chosen field, they have specialized and thus know more than i ever will. I'm not too proud to ask for their advice. My question is can any one man seriously be considered an expert in so many different aspects of arboriculture? You give the impression that you are and that may be why you rub me the wrong way. I've seen guys like you get guys like me hurt and hurt badly.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

You give the impression that you are and that may be why you rub me the wrong way. I've seen guys like you get guys like me hurt and hurt badly.

Reallly....

(Add a Majoy Payne emphasis to that)

I'll add a question / comment similar to one earlier in this thread.

So if I subcontracted a huge oak tree to you on one of my projects, and you were in total control of all your own climbing, pruning, debris removal - are you telling me you would do substandard work because my signature is on the line for the whole property?

Because that's what your comment and some other's comments are sounding like.

Maybe you guys do operate that way.

All I know is that sub-standard work is not going to proceed from me. And the arborists I hire don't compromise when they are on my projects. Especially considering they are climbing Certified Arborists in a far better position to realize reality than you are.

So based on your comments, I can only conclude that you would do inferior work for someone like myself, if you were allowed free reign in the tree.

See how awkward your fabrication sounds?

The reason that the arborist I hire don't experience the fantasy realm that you fabricated, is that we are working together as a harmonious team. They do their stuff in the trees, and if they need help, I follow their lead. Then I contribute my Certified Arborist skills and Certified Landscape Tech skills, and nobody gets hurt.

And the quality - as I've said - is like 300% better than some other services.

We don't experience the problems you suggested, so the way I see it, the "killing" kind of guys must have their wagons surrounding your camp - not ours. That kind of problem is not in sight for us.

You basically just vouched to that effect with your comment.

There are dozens of fine arborists on ArboristSite. So you are saying that if I hired any of them, that their work would be substandard if they were given full reign to do the project completely and safely.

That's really mystery to me, how any of these ethical arborists could all of a sudden do crappy work, while everything delegated to them is entirely in their own hands.

You really like to slap your own industry workers in the face don't you.

 

[beowulf343]

So if I subcontracted a huge oak tree to you on one of my projects, and you were in total control of all your own climbing, pruning, debris removal - are you telling me you would do substandard work because my signature is on the line for the whole property?

No worries-i will never again subcontract out to an arborist who can't climb. My groundie spent two weeks in a hospital cause a non-climbing ca assured us he knew how to work a grcs and i was young and dumb enough to be in awe of his certifications and not question him.

The reason that the arborist I hire don't experience the fantasy realm that you fabricated, is that we are working together as a harmonious team. They do their stuff in the trees, and if they need help, I follow their lead. Then I contribute my Certified Arborist skills and Certified Landscape Tech skills, and nobody gets hurt.

This paragraph cracks me up. So i can assume these climbers are guaranteed to get hurt unless you contribute your capitalized skills?

 

[M.D. Vaden]

No worries-i will never again subcontract out to an arborist who can't climb. My groundie spent two weeks in a hospital cause a non-climbing ca assured us he knew how to work a grcs and i was young and dumb enough to be in awe of his certifications and not question him.



This paragraph cracks me up. So i can assume these climbers are guaranteed to get hurt unless you contribute your capitalized skills?

What you can assume is that I can high-climb replies in here better than most, identifying the weakness, decay and epicormic words, sentences and ideas.

The more you guys post, the more paragraphs it gives me to go in and provide some teaching lessons.

One of the most foolish statements I've ever heard before is when climbers say they won't work for a non-climber. That leads people to wonder if they don't work for homeowners, since it's rare that homeowners climb.

That kind of pseudo-professionalism basically sounds like fear. And it's really inconsistent. It starts sounding like a business world of Baboons if some climbers are willing to work for homeowners if they don't climb, but won't work for other people if they call themselves arborists but don't climb.

This is why I enjoyed a book once, and a teaching about the same time, on words. The instruction was to take statements, and dismantle them into smaller component pieces to see where the strong or weak areas of logic may be located.

Basically, you guys are providing less to study about arboriculture, but a whole lot of paragraphs to analyze regarding inconsistency.

The way to have a role model for arboriculture or landscape architecture in the Oregon area, is by doing the opposite of what you just wrote. Out here, overall, we don't have a prejudice problem against people. If a guy with a degree in electrical engineering wants to hire an electrician to install new wiring in his house, the electrician just writes-up the contract and gets the job done.

If an automobile mechanic here who does bodywork and engines needs a transmission rebuilt, the tranny technician has no worries - they just write up the service agreement and get the job done.

The only real problem that we encounter, is among some climbers with fragile egos or fears. It's one of the few trades in Oregon where you see a few people afraid or unwilling to do qualified work, just because they feel some need to pass judgement.

That's why I think they would make a great study case for someone working on a thesis.

 

[Mitchell]

women

10 options is the poll limit.
That brings to mind a whole different matter that I'd never thought about before - women arborists. I'm curious about if a woman arborist company owner, would feel the need to use an image of a male climber in an ad? It's just that I've never seen an ad before with other than a male climber with a chainsaw. I wonder how much of a difference it would make to homeonwers and how much they would let the image affect their decision. It really should not matter. But somehow I think it would make a difference to people.

In my experience it makes a massive difference. I originally advertised my business as "Two Daughters Tree." My motivation for starting my company was my two daughters. Big mistake, not one call from any ads I ran. I mean not one, even though we had the worst hurricane damage in modern history. I changed my add to a generic "tree service" and starting getting calls. People do not want a gal showing up to do a tree job, particularly a removal.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

In my experience it makes a massive difference. I originally advertised my business as "Two Daughters Tree." My motivation for starting my company was my two daughters. Big mistake, not one call from any ads I ran. I mean not one, even though we had the worst hurricane damage in modern history. I changed my add to a generic "tree service" and starting getting calls. People do not want a gal showing up to do a tree job, particularly a removal.

Isn't it a shame that people think that way.

Even in Canada - eh?

Was that in Victoria?

 

[treeseer]

What you can assume is that I can high-climb replies in here better than most, identifying the weakness, decay and epicormic words, sentences and ideas.

A legend in his own mind. Stretching to find feeble fallacies is linguistic self-gratification.

If a boy pulls wings off of flies, it is true that they will not fly. But in becoming Lord of the Flies, he makes himself smaller.



:looser:

 

[M.D. Vaden]

A legend in his own mind. Stretching to find feeble fallacies is linguistic self-gratification.

If a boy pulls wings off of flies, it is true that they will not fly. But in becoming Lord of the Flies, he makes himself smaller.

We saved you a seat on the fence.


:welcome:

 

[Ekka]

I have a philosophical question.

Do all conductors know how to play every instrument in the orchestra? opcorn:

 

[lxt]

M.D.Vaden, this thread is similar to another one!! If subbin out Tree care works for you.....god bless ya, I had a landscape contractor who wanted me to do his Tree Work, I go look at what Im gettin into & I tell him what I want money wise, Problem with this is I bid the job for what its worth, he gives the HO the bid which is my price + his fee which = no job, other services come in at around my price minus the middleman fee & they get the job.

Again depends on your area I guess, dont take this wrong!! you kinda come across as though you can do it all, but all we hear Is Subcontractors!!
Any one can do this!! We have all when starting done different facets of Arboriculture to make a buck as Biz grows we choose to specialize in one field


Teaching lessons.........C`mon!! you are arrogant!!

Climbers not working for non-climbers refers IMO to working for a contractor not a home owner, homeowners know they cant do it!! But contractors like you will bid it, get it & want to manage someone to do it when you dont have the skills to do it yourself!!!

Your analogies are so non related to the topic being discussed, break down the following sentence & depict whats logical you said you like to do such??

I will pay your way here, pay for your room & board cause I want YOU to give me a teaching lesson in one of the facets of Arboriculture, Climbing & not off an orchard ladder!! c`mon up Big Man, teach me!!


this guy is truely an arrogant knowitall that does a disservice to the title CA rather than promoting it "Logically".

LXT.............

 

[M.D. Vaden]

d


Teaching lessons.........C`mon!! you are arrogant!!

c`mon up Big Man, teach me!!

Probably the opposite of that.

Like I wrote several times. Suppose any good climber on here works for a homeowner under contract and will do the job right, I defy them to explain why they can't work under contract for me and do it right? Or for virtually anyone and do it right, provided no one interferes with their perfomance of the contract.

If the contract puts no limit on that climbers ability to cause them to do any less than they would for the homeowner, then where is the arrogance? Where is the flaw? Where is the substandard work?

With the climber, not with the other party who signed the contract.

You have been taught. You have been asked. You have been given the crystal clear example.

And some climber replies are dodging that kind of example and question like the plague.

That's why I keep repeating it. To lay the responsibility where it needs to lay.

If someone - no matter who - hires a climber under contract and the contract does not tie the climbers hands as far as good craftsmanship goes, then performance of poor craftmanship can only lie with the climber.

Since the thread is on arboriculture, and since some climbers have indicated that they would not work for non-climbers, I'll keep repeating this angle again, and again and again.

For the simple reason that a simple contract takes care of the situation. And refusal to work must be involve some kind of pychological or attitude matter - like fear, prejudice, etc..

As far as my classes, the best ones and most well recieved by the students, are the ones where I teach them what they don't know, not what they do know.

An arrogant person is recognized by them challenging others to teach them about what they do know. For example, like what you wrote.

To coordinated an effective class situation, I avoid the pitfall of teaching students what they already know. In several classes, students already had preconceived ideas of what a class should be like, as if they were mentally trying to predetermine the content. After about 20 minutes their minds start to adjust that they material is headed into new territory for them.

So one, I would not waste my time teaching you. But if I did, I would schedule to interview you for a hour or so to see what kind of background you had. Preferrably on a campus size grounds situation to ask you a few questions as a core sample of your plant, turf, soil and tree care. After that, I'd know what what aspects to share with you in a teaching situation.

But I'd take 30 people who want to learn something new any day, over one person who asks to be taught about what they think they already know. That's the best way to expand arboriculture and horticulture.

To av

 

[M.D. Vaden]

I have a philosophical question.

Do all conductors know how to play every instrument in the orchestra? opcorn:

That's actually a fairly good question.

Because they and a lot of the orchestra, are still adhering to a bit of a blueprint in many cases, with a bit of variation. But they still follow a written standard - the symbols.

 

[lxt]

Regardless of who contracts me & my team we do the job professionally!! How ever one problem I have ran into is that the contractor who sub`s work has agreed to things with the Home owner/other that may not be the best way to do it. therefore I talk directly with the homeowner to get a feel of what they`re trying to accomplish & advise them of unforeseen things that may arise & provide alternatives.

If the contractor/You cannot convey what else may need done if a certain scenario arises while aloft!!!, then the outcome may not be what the contractee expected, If you dont climb & cannot inspect the tree fully then how can you justify a regiment of treatment or care, let alone sell the homeowner or other on a specific job task when that agreed upon "Care" doesnt fit the situation at hand.

So to answer your question, No I would not refuse to sub to a non climber as long as I can speak with the person the work is being done for first!! It would be better for one as yourself to refer work rather than trying to sub it out, why would even need to be there? If your answer is to manage then you have contradicted your post.

My thought is you cant do it!!! but still want to make money from it!! around here that will get you into trouble by no one wanting to work for you and being left out in the cold by having bid work you youself cannot do!!

Are you trying to be a General Contractor?

LXT..........

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Are you trying to be a General Contractor?

LXT..........

I figured I'd answered that several times.

I'm about as anti-general contractor as they come.

 

[lxt]

I figured I'd answered that several times.

I'm about as anti-general contractor as they come.

You do realize that what you describe & the way you operate your biz is the same as that of a General Contractor?

If you sub work out you in essence are a GC, how can you say you`re anti GC?

LXT...........